the problem with this discourse is that people say that the left needs to “speak to young men” in some general way, but no specifics are ever given because then you’d realize these people actually have no solution
Reposted from
Raywat Deonandan
If progressives want to win back young men, then they must talk to them and address their needs, instead of constant scolding. All the finger wagging just drives them to Rogan, Peterson, and the Tate brothers. And they DO talk to young men.
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It makes me wonder who is paying people like Ben Shapiro, Candace Owens, Charle Kirk, etc.
When I told family I was sad about never having dated, they said, "So… Toastmasters? Or Dale Carnegie?"
Don’t hate me just trying to make a good faith attempt at this, I find it all insufferable as well
A large part of the reason why Tate et al. win boys and young men over is because so few empathise with them.
It's just what conservatives like to pretend happened to them in order to justify doing whatever nasty thing they want to do.
"Ooh, and it looks like trip 9s! We'll be right back after this exegesis of the commodity-form."
I was not serious.
It just didn’t get explained correctly because democrat politicians let republicans control the narrative on every issue
Oh well at least you're not scolding them.
The “dumbest thing” someone says is still something to be critics of
Me: Here is a book offering specifics and proposed solutions
You: Here is a podcast about why those specifics and proposed solutions are bad by two guys offering none of their own.
This podcast explains why the rest of the book is trash.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/of-boys-and-men/id1651876897?i=1000698061951
(this podcast is by @notalawyer.bsky.social )
They could be their friends, who will make terrible role models, random celebrities who can often be bad... 1/2
I would add that as good men, we have a duty to mentor young men.
Where is the middle ground here? That it's OK to call women "bitches and whores bit only on Mondays & Thursdays"?
Maybe the messaging needs to be, "Stop being assholes or you'll lose the ability to afford video games and still not get the sex you think you deserve."
Dems crushed that leaving a void that Trump and MAGA satisfied.
Remember, Trump was not nearly as popular with young men in 2016
Having been a young man who felt some of these things, being challenged on it was actually very effective in getting me to think through things and reassess what I thought was true.
It's not the only way, but other highly effective methods are needed to combat it.
One reason they're wayward is, many pursuits males generations past could adopt to build self esteem have grown specialized, expensive and inaccessible to ever more men/boys
Does Sanders start every speech with a 15 min haranguing about how everything sucks because of men?
There's a whole rubric for social skills training for Autism Spectrum Disorder; they should develop one for non ASD patients
Every few weeks my church would load all the teens into vans, give us snacks and play fun music, and then we’d go work 6 hours at a food bank
Any leftist male influences that can mimic a Peterson or a Tate would inevitably be antithetical to that idea at all (thought y'all are more about radical empathy or something). Wait, why y'all? I'm sorta part of this. Anyway, oof.
Ideally, they grow out of them.
Unfortunately, many retain them into early adulthood. How can we speed up the process?
I suspect this happened when we sent two consecutive generations of men to fight in world wars.
Sure the 'non-left' doesn't know, but neither does the left.
https://bsky.app/profile/worstcaseeng.bsky.social/post/3ljv3453uuk2e
If people told me I sucked, I could work on whatever sucked. If people tell me there's nothing wrong (a) people are lying to me & (b) there's nothing to be done
Well meaning, but it stung at the time
It’s all about reforming education and the media.
Masculinity isn't under attack.
I can be very masculine when I want and lately have been. I don't look the part anymore but in other ways I'm pretty masculine.
It has nothing to do with masculinity.
I also think our goal should be to foster boys in growing out of these highly odious traits, becoming good men.
I wonder why?
And progressives seem to be offering them the opportunity to grow up, which they need (but don’t want).
https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/need-2
That's the entire issue. Class, race, gender, whatever. The argument is that progressives need to play make believe that all success is 'hard work' and all failure is 'lack of effort'.
like it's really commonly misinterpreted/misunderstood by the very people who need to understand it to be better people
i mean
not that i have a better suggestion, im an idiot
but its something i think about
I do think it's an inertia bit, it can be reversed but goddamn it won't be through anything with "decorum".
You know and I know that progressive policies will be better for them. They don't.
But we're abdicating our shot at *all* of them by refusing to engage. It's an unforced error.
Now I don't think that's true per se but... well. Here it is, let's do some searching: https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/2024-democratic-party-platform
"Men", once you filter out places where it's just in-another-word, has... 3 that I could find. Two about soldiers, one about LGBT men.
Look, the whole platform doesn't have to center on men, far from it. But to go the whole mental health section...
You know and I know the right is talking to them about this, specifically with the window dressing of "Dems don't care."
We do! But we're sure as shit not showing it!
** It is a myth that any woman can fix these deeply disturbed young men!
progressives have done great outreach with the youth.
the youth love multiple younger progressive politicians who addressed their needs and have won their votes.
its why more young people vote left more than they vote right.
it is right-wingers who make the claim that progressives failed the young men. this is literally the argument Andrew Tate's circle made. and that argument is based in lies.
The only stable conservative relationships I know are all people over 40, where-
Of the 13 friends I have there are 5 couples and they're all left politically. 2 are conservative and have had almost no serious relationships and the last one is a "median voter" type-
Obviously this is all anecdotal but how many women are really looking for a guy who spends his time posting AI anti-trans memes and being mad at "blue haired feminists"? That kind of shit leaks through in normal conversation.
I don't think it's fair to tar a massive demographic including all kinds of minorities as being screaming racists.
What are the sides you're talking about here? Honest question.
I’ve worked w/ STEMpals, Robotics courses, road cleanups and eco-centered community events for yrs. A small dose of this erases a gaggle of DOGEbags any day.
We’re so far into the doom spiral we’re actually in dum dum doom.
The path back is long, but those same sycophants will (hopefully) have the tools to see cracks in veneer themselves.
That is all we can do, Marc. Hope you keep at it!
None of this is hard, it just takes time and giving some measure of a fuck to your fellow man.
They're being fed a lot of crap which makes them repellent to women. And when it's illegal to pay for sex and your state blocks pornhub...
Getting rid of no fault divorce, putting them into wedlock, restricting women from the workplace, banning abortion and contraceptives…
That’s „speaking to men“ for them
You then offer them 1) a plate of misogynist chocolate fudge brownies, and 2) a plate of progressive steamed broccoli. On what side do you think they're likely to come down?
By contrast, to instill more progressive values I think requires careful mentorship
Personally, even with that mindset, I am more into the idea of "spread the burden" so say, both partners work half as much and have more free time.
The core problem, is wealth imbalance.
And wealth imbalance between whom? The man and his wife/partner? Or his boss? Both sentiments are exploitable but the former is pathetic, the latter is just true.
Maybe that's what these people want, easily digestible nonsense.
Like - with WHAT? Empathy? I’m sorry, we’re sold out of that
It’s just that they aren’t the only ones they want to help. And they don’t want to help them be assholes
If you’re unaware and need a morbid giggle, MAGA Mein Kampf dropped and the Amazon reviews are spectacular!
https://www.amazon.com/Unhumans-Secret-History-Communist-Revolutions/dp/1648210856/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.uH20yNtRpbnVr2IH7dGsu5_omDA4Pv5YlTq4sZ2nY6ia-Iwl8y5VfbOMh-s5oq18hTy_k3Ie9IThAuaK2_in-61ElaCfqXYUUdi356Gp6HjLR5MV483B0HhOieo5QJu_GS7El60PtSByUZtYwcZkhxCeLEi62EMEHrjC4ugrg3QI_gDIKnpNGz0CrC_KhGlpobQpzozTqaPUQB9q2W4Vrg.sSyNuBYIkuSPov9gtTWFISis0mOH3OmcwB9ZJgcxUSQ&dib_tag=se&keywords=unhuman&qid=1741463457&sr=8-1
Sorry, I just beheaded that guy.
These chuds get off on the power of domination and having control, especially over women.
A bot won’t do it, no matter how many times they punch it or fuck it.
I'm not blaming women in this at all. It's a vicious feedback loop that's somehow more "rewarding" to both groups. It just makes it difficult to overcome.
Respect of young men, sure.
But respect is earned.
You can observe the retreat of bigotry post WW2 for example
Why do women have to 'earn' respect from teenage boys in your book?
If you can convince the lowest man he's better than the best woman, he won't notice you're picking his pocket
Media: Let's make the Queens Gambit.
I think it’s why “weird” was so effective in confronting them. It told them they weren’t uniquely powerful, it was that actually, no one wanted to say, or hear, that trash.
The democrats think they have a branding problem when really they have a product problem.
Hiking/exercise clubs, backpacking, dnd groups, whatever. Anything to build social skills and self worth without toxic sexual/monetary goals
It’s also important imo to view this not as a crisis men are experiencing so much as causing. The solution is self esteem either way
The other thing the right offers is power and control.
"When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression." IMO part of solution is better conveying that our ideas lift everyone up.
The challenge is getting them to understand the situation without making them feel attacked.
The only thing they get is told not to be rapey misogynistic little shits when they are. And many many of them are.
So they get blamed for actions not themselves
I think the left certainly offers that
It's fucking toxic as hell. I don't want to "hustle" at 5 side gigs in my free time. I want to fuck around in my free time doing nothing.
The left meanwhile are stuck with trying to come up with actual solutions and engaging system 2 from the off. They need to be far more direct about the actual problems.
How about this message from the Democrats?
"If you videogamer incel alpha males ever want to get loved & laid, then treat women with respect and kindness and listen to them when they talk."