They murdered over 1000 people at random. I have no trouble believing that some of them did so in more vile ways than I could ever imagine. But even if they put a 1000 babies in ovens, it wouldn’t justify burying another one in rubble.
It’s just so gross to tell people that want to prevent the death of innocent children that they are depraved ghouls that actually love child murder. It’s a somehow more disgusting variation of the real racists are the ones trying to remedy racial inequality argument that right wingers make.
The point is that Hamas can no longer be allowed to exist, because they will keep violating ceasefires, murdering Israelis and will keep using Palestinian civilians as human shields and stealing their humanitarian aid money. Peace is only possible if Hamas is gone. And Bibi needs to be gone too.
No the point is the slaughter of innocents is wrong regardless of who is doing it and if you have neutralized an opponents ability to harm you and continue to murder non-combatants you're just commiting crimes against humanity.
Bibi was propping up Hamas for years to undermine Fatah. Maybe, uh, not doing that, and supporting the PA, would help.
It's great that Bibi will probably be removed by the voters at some point soon, but his whole coalition is rotten. Should they be removed by carpet bombing Israel?
Why are you all always furries? Like all of the us intelligence propaganda networks are staffed entirely by furries? Bc you know it smells crazy in there
you have to see how this exact post could be made with just as much accuracy by saying “Israel can no longer be allowed to exist,” right? Israel has a long history of breaking ceasefires, murdering palestinian civilians, using human shields, confiscating humanitarian supplies, and so on
there is no hamas in the west bank, why have israelis murdered 90 palestinians there? why is the idf punshing people there too? this has nothing to do with fucking hamas, this has everything to do with a coordinated plan to dispossess gazans of their land and mineral rights en masse.
You're doing the thing I'm complaining about. We're not talking about whether Hamas needs to be removed from power, we're talking about whether killing thousands of civilians is justified to achieve that goal and it straightforwardly is not!
I want to use the numbers of children killed to prove that the other team is more monstrous.
This way of looking at morality doesn't make me monster. Why do you ask?
You don't eradicate an organisation that is also an ideology with bombs. The Israelis know that. The hamas leaders are in Qatar. They are known. Most of their money flow is known and could be stopped. The bombs on Gaza have a different goal.
Hamas is the best positioned to survive this kind of attack, as they have the best knowledge of the area and they are presumably in the vicinity of those hostages so they're perhaps LESS likely to be bombed... Plus there's Hamas abroad
The lesson is that unless you're some sort of rich grifter or maaaaybe in the army the government is ready for you to die, whether that government is Hamas or Israel! A real "women and children last" attitude
And I can tie buttered toast to a cat and drop it off the counter and solve the energy crisis. You can't eliminate hamas by carpet bombing Gaza but you CAN create hamas 2 double fuck you Israel from whatever is left over.
theres an iview with judith butler linked on bsky touching on one of her main works around grievable lives. she makes the point about the visibility of Israeli trauma ( shocking images) v that of the DAILY realities of Paelstinians babies literally baked and shredded from missile/phospherous etc.
I feel like the people who are pro gaza massacre cuz of hamas are ironically the same people who are like “dont punish all cops for the few bad apples” and “you cant condemn all christians just cuz of extremists” and other double standard logic.
it's the same madness that overtook the US after 9-11. it's distressing to see it happening all over again, but i guess at least there's more visible push back this time.
Do they not realise that in their country they will have prisons containing people who have done unspeakable things.
And if they were getting bombed because of the actions of those people, they would be saying somthing like don't kill me for what they did, i didn't do it, that's not fair.
Been seeing this a lot: "You say you want Israel to stop collectively punishing Gazans for the crimes of Hamas? Well what if I told you the crimes were really really bad?"
Interested in seeing what they think the conversion rate is for murdered babies, like how many Palestinian babies does Israel get to kill for every one of their own dead babies
My dear brother, who is much more clever than me, taught me about types of fallacious arguments, of which we see a lot recently. They are: tu quoque, ad hominem, non sequitur and ad populum. I now try to qualify them but still confuse them. Do you think that argument is tu quoque or non sequitur?
No one disputes that the crimes were bad! Killing random civilians is indefensible.
... Which is why it's indefensible to kill a bunch of civilians in response! Extremely basic principles deliberately elided by people who make arguments for a living.
I have an enormous amount of time & respect for you & agree with your second point completely.
Please don’t minimise the way the horrors have been & are being downplayed. A lot of us have lost friends over it. A lot of us are terrified because of it. Lots of people *are* disputing how bad it was.
That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
unfortunately as ever there are *some people* who say that it wasn't really bad. but of course your point still holds: it is terrible people who say that rape, murder, abductions of civilians wasn't bad. presuming we do not want to be terrible people, we should not be taking them as a model.
there is some quality of internet discourse which I keep trying to find a good name for. it goes like: find the most extreme version of the 'opposition view' to yours online. then act as if that is the mainstream view. now you don't have to engage with anything on that side & can do whatever to them
it is terrifying, as a Jewish person, when I see anyone online saying that killing Jewish babies is justified! my brain wants to hold onto it and not let go.
but also the terror is clearly the point. I am doing a lot of reminding myself right now that *this is not a mainstream view*.
Take Scott Alexander with a VERY healthy grain of salt (including some of the examples here), but he wrote about this precise, pernicious dynamic in "Weak Men Are Superweapons", and it's always resonated for me.
ahh yes. people were doing this when I said that tube driver shouldn’t be fired for saying “free Palestine” over the tannoy. “Oh but what if he’d said something attacking gay rights” well, he… didn’t?? So we don’t have to address that??
Yep that’s what sex worker activists deal with every day from our opponents. It predates social media & internet, but yeah. Straw man arguments. Or arguments that ignore any movement’s entire political history including its dissenters, factions, wings. On Palestinian matters, it is rampant.
There were thousands of people still alive a month ago that aren't now. A ceasefire significantly slows that number from rising.
Continuing the bombing causes that number to rise, a ground invasion causes it to go up quicker, and when it's over, the situation will still be untenable
And then 100s more Palestinians die when Hamas shoots off its next batch of rockets two months from now. And in the meantime 100s, if not 1000s die from lack of care in the Gazan apartheid state. The same # die, just over a longer period.
Right... so the IDF has to kill them first! I'm sure that the level of care has only gone up since 2 million people were told to leave their homes, most imports cut off, and bakeries have been blown up or are out of power/gas.
You can't support leveling cities while claiming you care about people.
Seems like it's rather clear the root of the problem isn't Hamas at all and is, in fact, the nation running a massive concentration camp, Israel. Maybe start there and end apartheid.
Go back the way it was? With the whole occupying stolen land and slaughtering tons of people in order to keep it, including journalists and protesters thing? Now that you mention it it is kinda lame
"but they hide under and around civilians, they use them as shields!" the headquarters of the israeli defense force, which is in tel aviv, shares a plaza with an art museum and is across the road from a shopping mall and a hospital, just to throw a stick in those spokes.
It's exactly the same. A military force with its headquarters in a civilian area. The only difference is that Palestinians don't push hypocritical nonsense about their enemy "hiding among civilians".
I don't think anyone can deny that fewer people would have been killed in Israel and Palestine if the Israeli government did literally nothing and let Hamas keep rampaging. And obviously that would be bad... but wouldn't that mean this is worse?
To be clear, I don't hate waffles. I'm not saying the Israeli government shouldn't do anything. But maybe not causing orders of magnitude more destruction than the destruction they're trying to combat would be a start.
Hamas killed people outside Gaza borders. Israel has been killing people inside the borders. Can you explain to me how not doing the latter would have enabled the former?
I'm not sure what you're asking. Hamas is still fighting even with the ongoing Israeli airstrikes, so it would follow that they'd continue if unopposed. And it's not really a point of contention that they lack the IDF's raw firepower.
Is Gaza a part of Israel or no? If it's in Israel, then everyone was attacking everyone in the same border; if it is not part of israel; then Hamas is attacking a foreign power occupying them. What is it buddy?
That's not what I said at all. My point is that Israel's current response is deadlier in the aggregate than doing literally nothing—several times more Palestinians killed than Israelis saved. The bare minimum that any humane actor should strive for is to do better than literally nothing.
I’ve seen a lot of people across opinion fail a basic litmus test of “will I call this out this same act as indefensible when my side does it” and it’s been pretty depressing.
Warning; don’t say that. Because so far I’ve been angrily told that a) it’s all fake, there was no attack on Oct 7 or b) it happened but fatalities weee very much exaggerated and also c) there are no civilians in Israel.
There are people stabbing Palestinians in the USA to punish them for what Hamas did in Gaza... and Hamas doesn't exist in the USA... a child got stabbed to death and was on the news because some guy thought that it was the only way to get justice for Israel... stabbing a kid under 10 years old...
The over the top Bullshit is starting to lead to a loosening of their grip on the narrative though. It’s too much for even some of the worst among us. Really peeling away some of the last layers.
Apparently, it's blood libel time.
I remember the "throwing babies out of incubators" thing and apparently cutting off power and food to babies in incubators and then bombing them is an entirely different thing.
Michael I'm reminded of the documentary Sarah Marshall just did about the Satanic Panic where people said with straight faces that they made candles out of melted babies.
If I’m recalling correctly it was reported as part of the evidentiary briefing of forensic materials the Israelis held for the news media a week or so ago. Or relayed in the reporting when the forensic experts were made available to reporters.
I saw a story about this being told from an incident in 1948 but from the opposite prospective (jewish terrorist committing the crime against a Palestinian baker)
From the massacre of Deir Yassin in 1948. Allegedly, a zionist soldier ordered an arab baker to throw his son in the oven. When he refused, the soldier knocked him down, took the kid and threw him in the oven in front of his father.
Then they said "Follow your son" and threw the father in.
Note 1: Not sure this exact story happened, but the village of Deir Yassir was indeed massacred by zionists militias in 1948. It is very likely that horrific things happened, whether that one story is true or not.
Note 2: Official records of the massacre are still classified to this day
An attempt to replace the “decapitated babies” narrative that was debunked? This one is even less believable, but it’s all meant to distract from the suffering in Gaza AND justify any level of atrocity Israel now commits in its ground offensive. Expect Israeli violence to worsen…
Hmm, thinking of what Fussell said, writing about WWI—“It was as if the general human impulse to make fictions had been dramatically unleashed by the novelty, immensity, and grotesqueness of the proceedings. The war itself was clearly a terrible invention, and any number, it seemed, could play.”
So their response is to massacre an entire people instead of punishing, adequately, the people responsible for such a heinous act?
Gobsmacking doesn't even begin to cover this, i am truly flabbergasted, appalled, disgusted even
Evil truly runs rampant in the world
If it was that bad, why are the ground troops holding back? Israel doesn't care about eliminating Hamas enough to risk their own troops. You don't go low-risk if the stakes are truly high.
Comments
This is who runs geller report. She's a real peach
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamela_Geller
[remembers all the casualties of the draconian drug war]
oh shit this makes all the insane anti-drug psa's not funny anymore 😬
"OH SO YOU APPROVE OF Y, YOU FUCKING GHOUL"
However, I very much don’t think that anybody who didn’t cook a baby in an oven should be shot because somebody else cooked a baby in an oven.
This should be in controversial really. And yet…
How does a human convince themselves that killing thousands of children is justifiable. You have to be a complete psychopath to even consider it.
unfortunately the first step is ousting him from power, which nobody can do because he uses wars on gaza to get moreemergency power”.
It's great that Bibi will probably be removed by the voters at some point soon, but his whole coalition is rotten. Should they be removed by carpet bombing Israel?
This way of looking at morality doesn't make me monster. Why do you ask?
I wonder if Israel is doin either of those things.
There. Said it. Is he mad at me?
And if they were getting bombed because of the actions of those people, they would be saying somthing like don't kill me for what they did, i didn't do it, that's not fair.
Also.
That last sentence is unhinged and inexcusable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony
... Which is why it's indefensible to kill a bunch of civilians in response! Extremely basic principles deliberately elided by people who make arguments for a living.
Please don’t minimise the way the horrors have been & are being downplayed. A lot of us have lost friends over it. A lot of us are terrified because of it. Lots of people *are* disputing how bad it was.
And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
but also the terror is clearly the point. I am doing a lot of reminding myself right now that *this is not a mainstream view*.
Take Scott Alexander with a VERY healthy grain of salt (including some of the examples here), but he wrote about this precise, pernicious dynamic in "Weak Men Are Superweapons", and it's always resonated for me.
https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/12/weak-men-are-superweapons/
A ceasefire doesn’t fix anything. Absolute best case scenario is we’re back to the same untenable environment we had one month ago.
Continuing the bombing causes that number to rise, a ground invasion causes it to go up quicker, and when it's over, the situation will still be untenable
I don’t know if there is a good solution here.
You can't support leveling cities while claiming you care about people.
Only "don't kill their neighbors trying to get to them"
scumbag keyboard warrior fused to his chair, logging on to root for violence. what a sack of shit
A new age of if it bleeds it leads
I remember the "throwing babies out of incubators" thing and apparently cutting off power and food to babies in incubators and then bombing them is an entirely different thing.
And even if they did it doesn't justify what Israel is doing to the people in Gaza.
Then they said "Follow your son" and threw the father in.
Note 2: Official records of the massacre are still classified to this day
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyWV-FEgxNU/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
It's like watching a person punch another person. But you get so mad, you punch some other 4th person.
Lots of people on both sides need to be sent to the Hague.
Gobsmacking doesn't even begin to cover this, i am truly flabbergasted, appalled, disgusted even
Evil truly runs rampant in the world
What's next? "Palestinians killed Jesus"?