Any time someone tries to explain social outcomes, the easy answer is "culture." That's because anything can be explained by culture (e.g., "oh that's just the way those people are; it's their culture"). When discussing Asia, sometimes this can get into weird orientalism.
Thank you so much for being clear and concise about this. As someone in the Japanese media landscape I am super tired of the orientalism that is epidemic in any talk about something imported from Japan
When I was on a menswear forum, I remember discussing the question of why there are so many bespoke shoemakers in Tokyo. Some people said, "it's because Japanese people value craftsmanship. They are noble, not like wasteful Westerners." This sort of handwaving feels unsatisfying to me.
Japan is a highly populated island, and they have had low cost of labor relative to the cost of raw materials. So, historically, it made sense to spend more time making a quality item that lasts.
In this thread, I will explore some ideas on why Tokyo is so fashionable. Some of it does have to do with culture, but as you'll see in the thread, culture is also shaped by political, economic, and institutional forces. IMO, one should look for structural reasons for outcomes.
A big reason why Tokyo is more fashionable has to do with the media environment. There are thousands of hobbyist magazines covering topics ranging from woodworking to whisky. In menswear, they can get very specific in terms of aesthetic: classic tailoring, workwear, streetwear, outdoorsy style, etc.
It's interesting to me to see the difference between US and Japanese fashion media. Whereas US media tends to focus on celebrities and ideas on how to break the rules (or the idea that there are no rules and you can do anything you want), Japanese media explores rules and details.
I think your view is a bit biased by your focus on western formal menswear. Japanese casual and streetwear can be equally obsessive but there’s less importance placed on rules and more on passion and curation.
One of my favorite Japanese words is 着こなすkikonasu, which Google translates to “dress well”, but that misses the something. It’s more like “wear adeptly”. It treats dressing well as a skill that you train yourself for. It’s not just buying a piece and putting it on.
Here are some scans from Men's Ex on how to shine shoes. The last scan (I think from Free & Easy) explores the teeny, tiny differences between nine pairs of full-cut chinos. The Japanese word otaku refers to nerds who are obsessed with these niche hobbyist details.
one theory is rule-following culture is downstream of being a densely populated island (similar to UK). In the US frontier culture meant spreading out and escaping rules. There's nowhere to escape to in Japan/UK so you need rules to get along with folks
I had a grand time as a tourist there a few years ago despite not speaking any Japanese. At least in Tokyo and Kyoto, there’s infrastructure to support tourists.
The anecdote I use is during WW2 the Japanese government studied exactly how many hand tools it took to construct a traditional home from wood (190 or so). It embodies all 4 of those forces/reasons, but also *careful study and determination of what they wanted to preserve*. Which is fashion in a way
If I could get a pair of handmade shoes / boots that fitted my feet, I'd absolutely buy them. I don't want anything fancy, just shoes that actually fit my feet. I'd have them resoled as necessary. I just want them to fit.
The current trend for soles that can't be replaced is my driver for new shoes.
I'm going to read further, but I'm logging my guess that it's partially zoning - allowing for tiny niche stores and making for more going places on foot where people will see your outfit.
There being no fat people is a laugh. Come to Japan. Overweight people are absolutely everywhere, and one of the biggest TV talents is an overweight person, Matsuko Deluxe. Culture tourists like the idiot in your screenshot never broaden their horizons.
"aren't very many" is rubbish. You can split hairs and section out overweight people from the obese, but if you want to do that, you don't have to look for long to find people who are in higher weight categories, anywhere you go.
And its not hard to find an obese person no matter where you go. I live in a rural part of Fukuoka and its just reality that society is a mixed bag of different bodies, even out here.
Sure. The numbers for England (my other main frame of reference) are 26% obese and 38% overweight which is why my impression is that obese people in Japan are rarer (certainly not nonexistent).
This whole conversation is an example of different perspectives.
The initial reaction to 'there are no fat people in Japan' ➡️ overweight people are everywhere ➡️ my reaction of 'there are overweight people, but not that many'
We probably agree, just reacting to different things 😅
A gf and I travelled together in Japan and made a game of looking for fit men .No luck until we got to the countryside. Japanese road workers were fit.
I remember a jacket I bought in a boutique on Hollywood Blvd cause my friend from Tokyo insisted. I was always getting compliments on it. It was ridiculous. It was a cool jacket, but I don't think I ever GOT it fully. Lost it to a burglar.
All of Japan ⛩️⚡ except maybe around the southern coast of Honshu, where it's open pit tanks and flip flops a-go-go. The Japanese fascination with Jazz through the 60's and 70's can still be seen in crazy dapper suits on elderly men in coffee shops. Nara is lit!
My theory is Tokyo is a high density, high population, high income, walkable city with four seasons. Even rare styles can find sufficient fans to form a community. Niche doesn’t exist when your city has 40 million people. That’s probably why Bourdain picked it as his favorite city.
I am so glad that Bluesky gives me that feeling of old twitter again: I follow a bunch of great, intelligent and interesting people - and I just stumble into this fascinating thread, that I never even knew, I wanted to learn more about ❤️
It’s great, isn’t it? I checked into Twitter again today, and the contrast was obvious. I just wish the last few people I can only follow there would move here…
This is a great thread. Still, the "no one is fat" claim is always disappointing to see. We have fat people in Japan. Even Japanese people erase them, or portray them as clowns, but they exist across society. And of course, fat people can be fashionable too.
Not even touched on is the non western stuff, Like this is normal wear in japan during festivals and celebrations and certain holidays and such. young and old men and women but more so the women just wear these amazing often time custom made dresses, The ultimate in drape
Well, it depends. Your second pic is of people wearing yukata - cheap, informal clothes for summer festivals. The third one is of young women wearing very expensive (and probably rented) silk furisode, either for hatsumode (visiting temples on New Year) or seijin no hi, /
the festivity for young adults turning 20. There's *a lot* of variation in Japanese clothes, and for the past 20 years or so, people have been turning back to the Meiji and Taisho eras for creative inspiration in causal outfits.
I've been obsessed with Japanese work ware for years Baggy Trousers
The distinctive form of the baggy nikkapokka pants worn by Japanese construction workers catches the eye. Billowing outward below the knee, they taper sharply at the ankles.
I like that they follow the ankh Morpork golem fire brigage school of fire fighting stomp the crap out of anything that might burn and move it out of the way. no messing around with buckets and pumps
Sadly nikka are disappearing, most of the big construction companies have added safety rules against baggy clothing. Can still see them in the countryside / smaller contractors.
That's actually one of the benefits actually if they get caught up, have something spilled on them or snag in something it's kept away from your body and the extra material provides more impact protection as it compresses. it's also easier to climb or squat down https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2005/12/20/reference/baggy-trousers/
I was sitting at a bar telling a friend “you gotta follow this guy!”. Showed her Derek’s profile and this masterpiece was there. Spent the rest of the evening reading this thread with her.
Let’s not forget that a huge number of Japanese folks, even Tokyo residents, just look like shit, shuffling around in pjs and a hoodie covered in cat hair, just like Americans. They might even be an invisible majority.
To the extent that fat people who would prefer to do otherwise don't wear fashionable clothing is because not enough people MAKE fashionable clothing in plus sizes, sunny Jim
Great thread @dieworkwear.bsky.social !Japanese culture values not only craftsmanship but perfection. It creates a mindset where each person’s look, house, life needs to fit that aesthetic.
To give a non fashion related example, the best Mexican food I’ve ever had outside of Mexico was in Japan.
Yeah, the fat crack overshadows this entire thread. Just unnecessary except to be mean-spirited which makes it hard to enjoy the other content. Was quoting him--from another platform, no less--really needed to launch this discussion?
Id like to address fashions discrimination against fat people. Lack of variety & color choices, having to pay more for more material, no sizes over 2X or 3X available for everything. Id like to not have to wear black all the time. Fat people deserve to feel sexy and look good in quality clothes.
Basically, everything thats available for "normal" or "average" sizes should be available for all sizes. This should also go for costumes as well. A lot of plus size cosplayers find it very difficult to find things that fit.
There are also way more options for stylish (albeit still more expensive than straight size) fat fashion in womenswear than masculine clothing.. maybe it’s easier to make a diverse size range of draped garments than finely tailored garments OTR but it sucks how limited plus size menswear is :P
Not if you're a woman who happens to be both fat and tall. None of the "clothes for fat women" shops sell ranges that are tall enough to fit me properly, and none of the "tall" sizes are for people outside some weird 'normal' range.
On the bright side it encourages me away from fast fashion.
Nor if you are super petite but fat. Im just shy of 5ft, and at my heaviest, the only quality plus sized petite clothes I could ever find was Talbots, and they’re so frumpy! Women exist outside the 5’4 to 5’8 range, and we don’t all want to dress like coastal grandmas.
This drives me nuts. I wear a 2x. Not XXL straight size. I am very curvy. I am also tall. I love the way old navy pants fit but they only go up to an XXL in tall sizes. So I’ve got to be content with a crotch that’s too low and pants up above my ankles or pants that are long enough but too small
And don’t get me started on tops. I have a long torso and so many plus size shirts fit me weird as hell. They’re cinched around my boobs instead of under them or in the middle of my stomach instead of my waist…it’s so frustrating. We have options, which is great, but a lot of those options don’t fit
dude even hangers aren’t one size fits all and the cheap fast fashion blouses will snag in the shoulders falling off them 😞but i still find i dress more feminine than i want to bc i just don’t know where to find menswear that fits
personally a huge fan of Loud Bodies for some very elegant showstopping women’s clothing! and there are some reccs for different styles of plus size womenswear in this podcast ep i love the fab fatties :) https://youtu.be/5yQ8mdIMFu0?si=wr6gTkAnw7IxXZGK
Thanks, I'll try and have a look. Currently I am trying to not purchase new clothing too much, but I'm also an active person who is hard on textiles so this means a lot of mending.
oh yeah 5’11 and size 24 here, I buy a lot of my clothes from European brands bc they have a taller fit model than US. ASOS is hit or miss, Ulla Popken is a little better.
Especially in the US there's no good reasons for a lack of fashion for fat people. I'm not in any way qualified to opine on Japan, but here? Companies are leaving money on the table. It feels like they don't think fat people have any money or spend it all on cake.
Right? We have our wallets open and its like they hate money coming from the majority of people who need decent clothes. Champion is a nice brand that has sizes that run big. I have a sweatshirt and a couple jackets from them that feel great.
And if you look at brands that do at least make large sizes, which ones sell out first? The biggest. Because there IS demand and they are just not making enough.
lol. The people who think the body is a mathematical machine where you can just tweak the number of one variable and get results are the funniest ever. No dears, bodies are much weirder and much less predictable than you think!
If its science, then you need to explain it way more in depth than just some statement saying "dont do the thing" and expect people to be like holy shit why didnt I think of that?!
Excellent thread, despite the fact that you've chosen to ignore OP's fatphobia. I'll not talk ab the OP, rather why Japan has these great niche and meticulous crafters with magazines and stuff at the same time that doesn't offer options to fat ppl or even slim ppl with bigger bodies?
I loved this thread and its conclusion. Yesterday I accompanied a Japanese man in his late forties to a business meeting in London and noticed the sharply elegant 3/4 length coat he was wearing. He had acquired it when he was in high school from a importer/shopkeeper who bought it in Europe.
I live in Tokyo and make menswear here (I’m a hand knitter for a kind of famous mens brand and a tailor). I watch Tokyo folk all the time and I am not sure we deserve the title of most fashionable city. I see so many men with ill fitting trousers in Marunouchi and Otemachi than I’d like to admit!
That last sentence is so true. Am in Tokyo now and remarked to a friend how there is very little obesity. We have a lot to learn from that. Contrast with India where it is increasing as well as most Western societies.
I always wondered this. There is a college nearby with lots of foreign students, the Japanese folks stand out clearly from the Korean, Chinese etc. Even the simplest thing will still be worn more formally somehow.
I have an additional theory that the small size of Tokyo apartments also contributes to a style culture — if you have very little storage space you can’t thoughtlessly accumulate cheap, disposable things. Getting your fashion dialed in is a necessary practical trait
Great thread. Having run a small mfg business, I would say there is a 'cultural' factor in producing great products but that culture is created by a collective and relentless focus on quality. Quality in this context is almost obsessive attention to detail and to the needs of the customer.
I have no idea, but I must agree. Tokyo is the only place where I've felt "at home" wearing the clothes that I wear. I live in a small city in Finland and sometimes, I do feel as though I stand out a bit more than I'd prefer to. Tokyo is wonderful... I miss you Tokyo!
Do you think Paris used to be more like this? I’m asking bc it feels like Paris has (maybe until very recently) many of the qualities you point to here — dense walkable urban area, lots of newsstands, etc. I guess the one thing that’s changed in the last few decades is commercial rents. 💸😫🇫🇷
I was more thinking of the global trend of RE costs skyrocketing and vacuuming up more & more money so most people have little left over to spend in weird little shops etc. I don't know any specifics about Tokyo.
Dense, walkable cities means that more people will see your clothing because you’re not in a car, and I think that prompts people to dress better. I was once walking in NYC and, in a crosswalk, suddenly realized I could tell which men were wearing bespoke suits as they passed me.
Was recently “complimented” on my “classy casual” look by a maitre d’ in NYC, then was “complimented” for a camo sweater/sports coat combo by a worker at the Met. It could be that strangers judge and comment on clothes causing social pressure. Next time they get socks and sandals to make a point.
I’ve lived in California, New York, and DC. I disagree, people notice what you wear in the west, and they make a judgement. In California, it may be more casual - suits look weird - but people use clothes to signal who they are, whether it’s Boho, Goth, Punk, Professional, Farmer, etc.
Notice? Maybe. But I've been all across this great big land, and the ONLY place I've ever been where total strangers feel somehow weirdly entitled to come up to me and comment to my face on shit like that, is the eastern seaboard
Ah, I see. You’re right, people in the west don’t comment to your face about what you’re wearing. They’ll think it, they’ll tell someone else, but they won’t say it. FWIW, in NYC I’ve had it happen with food. Discussing what to get for dessert, a man said “Don’t get it here, go around the corner.”
Great insight here. I find Tokyo’s urban fabric intensely satisfying to traverse on foot and I’m also hugely partial to Japanese style and craftsmanship. But I hadn’t previously made the connections between those domains that this thread lays out.
I think it’s a valid point in terms of a brands production costs - Japanese brands don’t need to make the range of sizes an American brand does so lower costs. It’s more about body type than anything else.
Great thread, I didn't realise Japan was so stylish. I usually think Italy is the most stylish, I felt very out of place there (I read quite a bit of your posts but it's slow going improving your style)
i've also heard the perspective that many Japanese kids seek to define their style early - and often highly individually - because school uniforms are almost universal.
Great thread, really interesting. It holds true to other Japanese hobby cultures outside of fashion, and is a great theory. I think the rules inherent in traditional Japanese clothing like Kimono is also a factor - gaining status through strict rule adherence has historical precedent there
It would be interesting to investigate how Italy has a style culture centred around large designer brands, and how that contrasts with Japan which seems more niche. E.g. would large design houses have had a similar influence there if commercial rates were higher?
I like the explanation in the original thread for why this sort of fashion thrives, but I think there is a historical - or "cultural" - element that is a factor. Italy is similar IMO, fashion there today is important largely because it was historically how you showed success.
So interesting. And a lot of your arguments hold for some European countries too, eg here in Belgium. Lower cost of living, lower rents, means more independent clothing boutiques, more choice, and I think you see this in how people dress.
I am always amazed by the quality & quantity of specialist shops in Europe, small Italian / Spanish towns - can support 5 or 6 independent bakeries in a tiny area
Indeed. Or shopping for baby/kids’ clothes, strolling through Leuven and finding dozens of small independent places with such a variety and great quality whereas in the UK it’s the clothes aisle in Tesco.
Yes, that's why I always thought the Eurosceptic argument that the EU was going to turn Europe into a homogeneous hellscape - was such idiotic nonsense & frankly projection
I mean northern Tuscany is visibly different to southern Tuscany ffs
Is cost of living cheaper though? I was speaking with an English couple living in France and they were saying property is cheaper but food etc more expensive
Cost of living in Belgium is vastly cheaper, mainly because in the UK my money is/was mostly spent on housing and transport, both of which are far cheaper in Belgium (and better). Food is about the same. Despite higher taxes Belgians seem to have more disposable income.
I was reminded very much of high-end guitar-making in Granada. My pal moved there in the early 90s to learn. Very supportive ecosystem, customers who are prepared to wait and pay, and low operating costs. John makes 10-12 guitars a year and they start at £5k. It's a nice niche to be in.
The social and cultural impact of transport networks can be quite fascinating. I've only ever lived in European /UK cities w. good public transport, so American car culture is a very weird and exotic thing to me. So many cultural differences seem to stem from it in unexpected ways.
I suppose it might be a bit harder to find clothes that fit you and fit together if you're on the heavier side, but I'm pretty sure Derek has referred to a few bigger dudes who dress really well in the past.
I was gonna say - Derek posts quite often about body type not dictating being fashionable or dressing well. He’s been one of the more body positive + clothing people I’ve seen.
Which is also an effect of urbanization! Most Japanese people walk far more than Americans because they live in places where walking makes sense rather than sprawling suburban metroplexes where the longest walk most people make is across a parking lot.
I appreciate your thread, but tbh, I feel like it would've been a kindness to have cropped out that last bit about fatness at the end of OP's post.
Irrelevant to your thread and just casual cruelty to fat people.
Not only that but there are absolutely plus sized folks here in Japan! There are more plus sized celebrities and just on average more plus sized folks, brands, etc. Pretending they don’t exist is cruel.
Interesting you mention kids here because one of the first things I thought of in the OP is Japan’s low birth rate going back a generation or two leading to more discretionary income to pursue obsessions.
So before industrializing, Japan had a reputation in the 1800s as a land full of babies, and still had a great reputation for fashion and art and toys and comics and so on.
The part not mentioned is Edo was the world's most populated city with a big menswear dandyism scene since 1700s
Most, but there's been a bunch from all over! Most of the Yokozuna's (highest rank) recently have been Mongolian. There was even someone from the UK recently who made some news when he joined a sumo beya.
I've seen it said that the 'size creep' in sumo happened once the Samoans joined the sport.
Japan has universal health coverage. It’s not free, but apparently something that covers everyone. I could be better dressed (and other good things) if I didn’t have to budget for health insurance and care. Maybe that’s a me problem, but life in the US is horrible in some ways.
Hurdle? More like a mountain! The fuel and automotive industries would spare no expense in swiftly striking down any attempts. And they're not the only ones. The number of companies who would be negatively affected by us getting nice things is huge. It's why we never get nice things. :(
I read a book about Japanese noise music that has a ton of parallels to this. Many noise pioneers were just western freeform jazz nerds who met up at niche listening spaces, published niche zines, and performed at niche venues. Amazing how cheap, dense property enables challenging art
That guy can go fuck himself with hit fat phobia. I'm so over how casual people can be fat phobic.
It's boring and stupid. Lots of skinny people are poorly dressed slobs. And lots of fat people are impeccably dressed. It has NOTHING to do with how fashion conscious you are.
Comments
A thoughtful journey from fashion to urban planning and the economics of large vs small retail
I know what kind of pair
of pants and shoes and shirts you have on.”
Not to mention the more permissive zoning, zakkyo buildings, etc. that make Tokyo a supercharged version of the NYC phenomenon she was writing about
The current trend for soles that can't be replaced is my driver for new shoes.
but in their natural worlds.
There just aren't very many of them.
Apparently about 20% of men in Japan are overweight (BMI 25+), and 4% of the population are obese (BMI 30+).
Which matches my general impression.
The initial reaction to 'there are no fat people in Japan' ➡️ overweight people are everywhere ➡️ my reaction of 'there are overweight people, but not that many'
We probably agree, just reacting to different things 😅
It's weird that people want to pretend otherwise.
https://www.instagram.com/mac_nakata/
The distinctive form of the baggy nikkapokka pants worn by Japanese construction workers catches the eye. Billowing outward below the knee, they taper sharply at the ankles.
To give a non fashion related example, the best Mexican food I’ve ever had outside of Mexico was in Japan.
Japanese fashion is excellent, of course, but fetishizing it is gross.
On the bright side it encourages me away from fast fashion.
It is so bizarre.
thanks for the casual fatphobia drive-by i guess?
This guy is the fashion center of everything
West of the Rockies- maybe with the exception of some pockets of L.A.- nobody, absolutely nobody gives a flying fuck.
YMMV.
https://putthison.com/david-sedaris-goes-clothes-shopping-in-tokyo-who/
Gross take from him.
i've also heard the perspective that many Japanese kids seek to define their style early - and often highly individually - because school uniforms are almost universal.
People, I find, also simply just give a damn about being well turned out.
I mean northern Tuscany is visibly different to southern Tuscany ffs
for a start.
📌
Irrelevant to your thread and just casual cruelty to fat people.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331642009_Red_Cloud_Dog_Child_and_the_Long_Knife_of_the_Samurai_in_Indian_Country
The part not mentioned is Edo was the world's most populated city with a big menswear dandyism scene since 1700s
I've seen it said that the 'size creep' in sumo happened once the Samoans joined the sport.
"improve walkability" is probably a big hurdle to take in large parts of the US though, no?
history
It's boring and stupid. Lots of skinny people are poorly dressed slobs. And lots of fat people are impeccably dressed. It has NOTHING to do with how fashion conscious you are.