I’ve really been wrestling with how to articulate the feelings of dread and despair I get from the UHC murder. This great piece by @caseyjohnston.bsky.social gets at one angle but inspires a question I can’t find a clear obvious answer to so figured I’d ask here.
https://www.shesabeast.co/back-injury-chronic-pain-uhc-shooter-luigi-mangione/?ref=shes-a-beast-newsletter
https://www.shesabeast.co/back-injury-chronic-pain-uhc-shooter-luigi-mangione/?ref=shes-a-beast-newsletter
Comments
Q2: is chronic pain treatment better in other parts of the world and if so what are they doing right?
Universal healthcare would help because they would be focused on patients over money.
You ought to contact them and do a segment on either your cable show or podcast.
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2024/12/12/world/science-health/americans-poor-health-study/
A2: No. The United States is one the most pharmaceutically advanced countires in the world. Which might be the problem namely, having access to industrial strength pain killers that cause addiction.
Why is it physically impossible for more people here to experience a particular condition than other places?
People have chronic pain in every other country in the world, it's just mostly treated without any dependence inducing prescription pain relievers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-p1nP6hH6U
It not only explains why one has to literally go postal to get coverage but also income in=.
Most plans in America PT is 12 visits per ref. But that is a lie.
A “visit” is often defined as a 30 min session. PT sessions require 90 min.
So 1 actual visit is 3 visits.
Petty bullshit.
I think dealing with chronic pain is mental. It takes effort to be positive. I don’t give
Treating chronic conditions is bad for the bottom line, so treatments are inadequate. And one good, cheap treatment for pain - opioids - have become much more difficult to get.
Painkillers are well and good, but if keeping your insurance means persisting in the job that caused your chronic pain, maybe that's a problem
What do we not understand about the worst examples of chronic pain suffering?
But obviously that is just probability. Pain isn't someone's fault. And this kid was obviously treating his body well.
But one of the challenges from the provider side is that there is often no intervention that is known to even likely work--the only thing they do know about is side effects and downside risk.
Then weigh that against the fact that the working class sees Trump as one of them & voted against their interests & for the top 1's. For more of life's decisions to fall to the wealthy.
Q2: Definitively yes! I have the same condition as Mangione (spondylolisthesis), while living in Mex, the US, Brazil, Colombia, Namibia, South Africa. Pain treatment was much better in most other countries than the US. 1/2
In the mid '80s I was hit by a drunk driver & spent 3 months in hospital recovering.
Because of Canada's universal health care system, I never saw a bill!
In 2018, I had a hip replacement and, you got it, never saw a bill.
This is 𝘴𝘰𝘤𝘪𝘢𝘭𝘪𝘴𝘵?
There's no time to heal !
Dancing around that is what neolib mouthpieces do.
Americans often wait until there is an emergency.
Even if you might be on a waiting list for a little while.
In the meantime, pain medicines and physio would be provided at little to no cost.
I think the answer is probably in line with every major health indicator. The answer is likely yes.
If you have multiple issues, say a neck, hip and lower back injury, there is little communication between specialists. You either listen to all of the docs, who usually want to operate, or have to figure out yourself what is primary source
Rehab in America is very bad unless you have a lot of money and can take a lot of time off from work, so it’s very difficult to recover. Totally different in European countries.
In America you have to be so sick, in so much pain to get help.
Insurance rarely covers “alternative” care that can offer a lot of relief so if you can’t pay out of pocket you’re screwed.
I’m often shocked at the lack of holistic knowledge doctors have and their lack of compassion. They are more like mechanics trying to fix a car
Chronic pain worsens with stress and what you have to go through to get an appointment or get prescriptions filled can be so stressful making chronic pain worse. In Europe so many meds are over the counter that you need a prescription in the US and
Our health care system should be renamed a sick-care system since there’s little incentive or help to stay or get healthy.
If you’re older and don’t have help all of these issues are compounded, along with an insane system that forces you to go broke before you
He's a murderer.
Full stop.
Zero sympathy.
It’s got nothing to do with the pain. It’s the impunity, the arrogance, the dismissal of one’s dignity…
Not surprised he was raised upper class; they’re not used to being treated this way.
Q2: Never been- not well enough. Don't know.
Pain in US is too often just dulled with pain relief meds, quick and cheap, not actually treated
Chronic pain is not considered a “condition” in the US, or at least is not treated seriously.
If you don’t have $$ or luck of working for a corporation which provides decent benefits, you are screwed.
The US is a healthcare hell hole.
2) US healthcare providers (insurance) only recently remembered that it's cost effective (for them, as well as for the public) to provide preventative care (they were also getting swamped w/maladies).
the reasons why US healthcare started prioritizing preventative healthcare are complex, but the ACA was a warning shot (a message that the market wouldn't bear further revenue extraction), ...
in the U.S., preventative care is only for the wealth-hoarders.
There is NO Way Wealth Hoarders could even SPEND their #Hoard - Pay-off the #NationalDebt?
But that would take Wealth Hoarders to actually PAY Taxes, and "Taxes are for the little people"
https://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1891335_1891333_1891317,00.html
However, for my poor family they got multiple surgeries, physio therapy, pain management tools (electro pads), meds...
I'm recovering now from surgery I delayed for 10 years.
We undertreat everyone's pain because a desire for relief from pain is still seen as a personality weakness
Medicine is getting a little better about considering alternate therapies, like acupuncture. But very little funding goes to it
Q2: other countries actually care about their citizens and treat them accordingly.
But I hope you reserve some hate for the pharmaceutical company. Insurance didn't raise the cost of that pill (now generic), there's other bastards afoot!
I went through the same crazy denials, changed me. Less social, glad I didn't pull the trigger on myself, or ins CEO
+ I helped correct vet ben, w these screws, Under trump w med fraud: US $$ HC kills many
Now I live someplace with socialized medicine and I'm seeing doctors when I need to. I have chronic pain, and I'm sure US healthcare contributed to that.
I can testify chronic pain is not only debilitating to the body, but to the mind and emotions as well. Thoughts of "will this never end?" are frequent.
Insurance companies do not have the power they have in America in any other country. It is astonishing how many years we have known this, and they still haven’t fixed the system.
How many have to die and suffer in pain before they change it?
#6'Elon
Corporate lobbying doesn't help, but people /could/ vote for these things and not enough do.
Q: is a lack of health data a feature or a bug in the fractured US healthcare system?
Q2: would better health data and record keeping lead to better health outcomes for things like chronic pain?
When you ask better questions the solutions become obvious.
They don’t have a clue.
In the US, people are treated like cattle. The goal is to have a profitable population.
If you can't produce milk, you're out.
The question is: are Americans able to get needed health care without undue friction. The answer is no for a huge portion of the populace. Lack of: money or care options nearby (care deserts).
Here diversity would be a workaround for the fact that nobody cares about patient satisfaction in the first place, much less among underrepresented groups specifically.
But if the idea is that a profit motive poisons all this stuff, and a more diverse group is only a mild band aid, yeah, I’m there.
Then try to navigate the system when you have undiagnosable pain, you realize many doctors don’t like the challenge of the unknown.
Not sure how pain treatment in US compares w treatment elsewhere but I do suspect ideology of, in effect, double predestination is stronger here than some other places
How? via mobilizing strong feelings of ndignation and sense of injustice
Watching + waiting for Rs to provide openings for D persuasion, they’ll oblige soon
Q2 - they aren't shoveling massive quantities of food into their pieholes
Happy to talk more... I have a 20yr physical therapy career as a spine & chronic pain specialist. Currently, PhD & prof in health policy.
Public healthcare incentivizes preventative care & many lower-cost, earlier interventions.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/dec/11/americans-living-with-diseases-health-study
https://www.statnews.com/2024/12/10/us-health-care-system-reform-how-portugal-spend-less-increased-life-expectancy/
The WHO data underlying the AMA study may have more.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2827753
But dealing with pain is as much a mental battle as a physical one, and our mental health care system doesn't know how to handle that process.
But patients are treated differently outside of the insurance system we have here. And western drs (and dr training) have an ingrained culture of gaslighting patients that their chronic physical pain is just a mental health defect.
Yes they are! Other countries have a wider variety of meds than either advil/tylenol or opiates. Doctors (not all of them, though) also tend to be more sympathetic to patients' pain. Received med attention in 8 different countries.
which was exactly what I said in the rest of my pt...that insurance and bad drs control access.
I am curious what treatments are that you're talking though?
They get really blamey-shamey.
I'm sure there's a lifestyle component too. We don't walk as much. We don't enjoy life as much. We neurotically stress ourselves out over /everything/, which affects how we respond to pain.
It’s gone from anybody can get Oxy for any reason to “yes we understand you are in extreme pain but due to possible opioid addiction, take two Tylenol and call me in a month”.
Treating healthcare as helping people and not a way to improve shareholder value.
https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3ld4qyh3pos2f
Because I agree: dealing with the American healthcare system gives all Americans feelings of dread and despair.
We live in a society where we encourage the slaughter of four year olds in a classroom, so I cannot bat an eye for him, much less mourn.
In a civil society, Mangione would have gotten the help he needed.
#makecrimelegal
There's nothing deep about it or him. Nada.
Why is the murder of a wealthy man so much more impactful than the murders of average people that happen every day that so many in the, wealthy, punditry class feel the need to comment on it for days?
It’s the public reaction to the murder.
Our health system is bad. We a non-profit single payer universal system so you don’t have to deal with insurance rejections when you are in pain. Or seriously ill.
Also payment for the service being dependent on your wealth would be a help.
Kid wants to go to college, parents have other plans and refuse to pay despite being well-off, kid applies for financial aid and gets denied because parents have money.
We all know someone who got stuck like that early in life.
I am also really pissed that the "left" is being accused of celebrating the murder when that is not the case. At least not in the circles I travel in (and I'm pretty 'left').
Acknowledging how someone could be driven to such a desperate act is NOT celebrating ANYTHING.
"It's NEVER THE ANSWER" is said as an article of faith. Except all of recorded history (and current politics) stands in direct contradiction. J6 guys *won.*
Threats & intimidation—
E.g., https://www.dailydot.com/debug/united-health-folk-ballad-tiktok/
Thanks for sharing/platforming it.
https://www.unpopularfront.news/p/the-tinkerer
Some only (metaphorically) shoot their shot when they have nothing left to lose.
I get him. I have no social life, rely on drugs & daily activities are a joke sometimes. There are days I want to be a homicidal & suicidal maniac. No one really cares.
embodiment of this.
When human beings have no recourse, some crumble, some fight.
“…sacrificing their bodies (not to mention getting pressed into service as increasingly competitive athletes at younger and younger ages).”
https://open.substack.com/pub/shatterzone/p/alleged-ceo-shooter-luigi-mangione?r=22t3g&utm_medium=ios
Actually, something that happened while in the military, 42 years ago today. Climbing the ladder on the jet I was working, right after my co-worker got off, the ladder fell off as I neared the top. I hit the ground on my back-keeping the ...
The hospital gave me flexeral, a pass for the rest of the day off, and that was that.
VA actually rated back 0%, but got rated for another reason, THANK GOODNESS!
Now we face project 2025.
I also have cervical degeneration that cause hands & fingers to go numb. W/O medication (from the VA) the pain is crushing.
IF #Project2025 follows the "manual" ~Veterans are SCREWED~
"Anyone can be a human widget" may well explain his motivation.
Definitely depressing.
Haven’t killed anyone
It’s the same with the subway death.
The system failed.
The system keeps failing the people, and these are only the two newest cases among the millions that catch the media’s eye. But the problem remains: the system does not work for the people.
#6'Elon
Dread and despair?!
You dont go out much, do you?
Another example of government interfering in the medical profession.
Or something
That's exactly why universal healthcare work.
And that's why in an individualised society it can't get hold.
Most people _now_ don't need it.
Acute Care: Poster above seems to be talking about this. Cancer and the like.
Health care is a human right. Americans seems to see it as a privilege.
They also cause a million family bankruptcies per year, and put tens of millions of people through unnecessary suffering akin to torture.
Sad for CEOs.
Why I've given up on main stream media.
This clutching of pearls for a POS CEO while retaining investments in these companies is the height of disgusting hypocrisy.
But I actually love that so many support him and get it.
https://www.npr.org/sections/shots-health-news/2024/12/12/nx-s1-5224139/mangione-uhc-brian-thompson-shooting-health-care?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2dX_kD8fp2UuNY3vIPb4sHqlKNVAXYjxnc5_-NCPfZ_ai0mKx_7nL__xg_aem_jBZfOGIINH9xSWe22GudMw
It takes time, patience and many years.
And for those who hate religion, I know, me too, so no need to tell me.
You're doing this all wrong
I feel light and optimistic
- Abraham Lincoln, 1861
when med cannibis 1st came around, MDs stopped morphine if pts on MM
His behavior, dropping out socially from all friends and family before his murderous acts are very consistent with other cases.
I go get vaccines as I am eligible, when I need something, I find an online provider that will take care of it (like estrogen).
I am healthy though.
"Because I'm one of the idiots that lives in the galaxy!"
2. He was tuned into a community of fellow sufferers who felt his hardship plus financial hardships.
Hero Worship combo with personal pain=deadly
Or do they WANT a dumb guy in there?
IT'S HERE. It's overpriced, and we're paying them to suffer and die.
Before 8 weeks passed, his pain was so extreme, he went to ER, got admitted...stage 4 cancer.
That was in AMERICA.
The worst part is that my late husband was a total progressive, but his family of origin are Christian conservative Republicans, his own father rants against Canada and their long wait times...and I'm like, How about your own son in the U.S.?!!
You don’t even know them up close.
Nah.