I see a lot of "no more", "isolate the US", "stand with Europe", etc. But what does that look like? Do we recall diplomatic staff and kick theirs out? Stop sharing FiVeEYes intel? NATO expulsion (no mechanism)? UN resolution? Scrap AUKUS? What form does "no more" take? What are the consequences?
Comments
The US is a hostile power.
Remove their military presence.
I'd start to freeze assets and implement a very strict visa for US travellers.
Trump and his cohorts/backers made personal non grata.
His British fan boys put under movement restrictions.
It's not time to bugger about.
1. Trump is angling for a 3rd term.
2. GOP is full of these people so his replacement will be no better.
3. Everything they do implies they do not expect to face electoral consequences. Election interference, gerrymandering, propaganda etc. Even Russia has elections but Putin always wins.
This is a coup.
Perhaps I'm too detached but there doesn't seem to be loud enough voices objecting to it in the states, it seems that they are inclined to let it happen.
Words matter. Be seen doing the right thing.
Intel should be shared on a case by case basis on the assumption that everything will find its way back to Putin (I'd be surprised if this is not already happening).
For their own protection, the EU/UK/Canada should form an alliance outside of NATO.
we also don't know/can't predict, the US domestic political consequences of yesterday, that is surely wide open.
in the meantime we can ruthlessly combat Russian hybrid measures and their proxies in Europe.
Invest in European military structures rather than NATO.
Start to wean the UK off US big tech. Binning X in the UK government would be a small but important start.
I'm struggling right now to see how we can continue to reason with the current US administration in the way that we have been doing. The current doctrine is inoperable.
*sarcasm in case it's missed!
Nonetheless, if you don’t stand up to a bully, there are consequences. Trump is not America & vice versa.
EU will need its own reliable nuclear deterrent.
Top level intell, such as the identity of human sources, cannot by shared with the US while Gabbard is DNI, so, yes, 5 eyes is compromised.
NATO'S importance isn't a legal text - it's the substance of reliability. That's hugely damaged already. Actions to disengage are the requirement, not legals.
Just drastically de-dollarize your economies and work with the Chinese regarding Taiwan. You know very well Taiwan is a US issue (too far and disconnected from EU concerns).
America’s diarrhea will be smelled all the way in Australia.
Can we trust FiveEyes information from US sources?
Will it not be tainted by Russian disinformation?
We have to fight for them too because we must be able to look them in the eye when Trump is gone.
Totally impractical, weakens everyone, turns strategic ambiguity into certainty and one day Trump will be gone
Plan for interoperability but try to not be reliant as much as possible.
And critically strengthen other alliances.
I don't know if our governments have started to rearm yet. But if not, now is the time. (And explaining the situation to the public shouldn't be postponed)
(And the volumes are so very much to our disadvantage!)
1/2
2)2
https://arthursnell.substack.com/p/unravelling-the-atlantic-alliance?r=8jnwf
https://bsky.app/profile/thedsrnetwork.bsky.social/post/3ljblx7w6zc2o
A good read.
I think you are well positioned to provide an ongoing, detailed focus on this topic (amongst everything else!).
There's so much going on I think your posts & podcasts on this very specific aspect will really stand out.
I really think Australia is brutally vulnerable in this reorganization, more so than the UK.
Rejecting the French Submarines now looks like a fatal strategic error.
Australia economically is tied to China and Defensively to the US... Crikey
If the USA does come back to its senses in four years' time, we need to be in a position where we can resume positive relations with the new president.
The current administration may not even last four
It's like an extreme version of the Johnson government.
Musk has already played games sabotaging Ukrainian Starlink comms during battles.
NATO cannot rely on Americans for anything.
BTW 5 eyes is also in trouble:
https://financialpost.com/financial-times/u-s-official-pushes-cut-canada-five-eyes-intelligence-group
Building up European intelligence capabilities is an underestimated challenge but not one we can avoid doing. I think NATO issue will take care of itself soon.b
This Traitorous Administration Is Collapsing Now From Within And Gods Will And Power Will Be Restored Soon! 🙏
🐝💪🇺🇸&🙏
Then join the EU asap, lobby for Ukraine and Turkey to join as well and form a big EU Army.
Sounds good?
Just do it, Alex.
So why don’t we do even this first step.
PS. And Hungary will vote for us as they did for Finland and Sweden to join NATO, let’s worry about that later.
I'd go with eff off.
This wasn't by mistake. US are so embedded here they could be a trojan horse if they flip.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Achse
The BBC gave a platform to the Russian ambassador and his proxies so many times.
Oh, there's a mechanism...
https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/The_Ancient_Mystic_Society_of_No_Homers
What Europe needs to do is act decisively to help Ukraine defeat Russia
Putin is weak, Europe is strong, we can do this if we choose to
2025 sucks!!
No expulsion, but creation of parallel mechanisms for security.
No need for panic. Need to bolster.
I think much of it is because people are scared
The world many of us have known for a lifetime has been stood on its head and Russia has been the bogeyman for 70 years
Hard to stay completely rational atm (including me I would add)
Putin is laughing now
Starmer deserves criticism for many things, but refusing to flounce off in a melodramatic huff with his fingers in his ears isn’t one of them.
Actually, two elephants: Trident plus the 13 U.S. military bases in England.
- A European pilar for Nato with it's own Art 5. clause.
- Re-affirming our commitment to Ukraine, but also Moldova, Armenia, and Georgia.
- Preparing European NATO stockpiles for swift refurbishment and
- Bringing European defence industry on a war-footing and a "buy European first" policy in procurement.
- Renegotiation of outstanding orders for US equipment with the US companies involved.
- Replacing planned orders for US air-defense systems by competitive European ones.
- Opening talks with Canada for closer military and economic cooperation.
- Taking on Hungary.
- Reopening talks with Turkey, perhaps considering alternatives to full EU membership beneficial to both sides and extending similar offers to Morocco and Jordan.
- ... this list is endless.
Assume that the US will refuse to honor its NATO and trade obligations and act accordingly.
So it's going to happen
It's a 20 yr process even if it was so who knows what the US would be like in those intervening years
Most UK voters are still more in tune with the Anglosphere than mainland Europe ...even if Trumps America has gone rogue
(Agree - we need to rebuild closer ties with the EU
There should be some implications for US in this.. if EU sites of US security won't act, do we shut them down? 5eyes and digital intelligence should stop..
This is how:
https://bsky.app/profile/osinttechnical.bsky.social/post/3ljdkdffwrk22
Demos everywhere. And refuse to buy any of their products.
Demos and boycotts helped SouthAfrica. Demos and boycotts helped Vietnam.
You can't trust that lot, they're going to bring down the whole fkin house on our heads and we can't stand around looking dumbfounded hoping it all works out with some kind words & flattery.
EU needs to embrace petro states, Canada and open up north sea again
Europe needs security independence from America, which is a malevolent actor.
I'd love to do a Gandalf and shout "you shall not pass" to America but we cannot be the ones to break things off.
Close security services?
It’s not easy and there should not be this knee jerk reaction yet.
The rate Trump seems to be moving at, there won't be much left.
Doing away with all that, and becoming isolationist, will set them back politically 100 years.
All while they destroy their own government.
https://financialpost.com/financial-times/u-s-official-pushes-cut-canada-five-eyes-intelligence-group
Europe needs to work as a whole we need to be a part of that Brexit was part of Putins plan and the conservatives ran on too much Russian money.
The UK isn't stupid...it isn't going back to the EU and lose its independence again
People just won't vote for it no matter what politicians say
Not everyone in the rest of the world has thought processes like Trump and his gang.
Sometimes they're capable of adult judgement.
There's a lot of issues and choices and dilemmas in all of this, it's epochal.
The UK is one of only two nuclear powers in Europe. That imposes additional considerations on the government and its responses.
America funds Europe in plenty of ways but it's not like our money doesn't flow into America's pockets too.
If you can do without something owned by an American billionaire, cancel it. If you owe them money withhold it. If you have data they want, do not provide it.
https://bsky.app/profile/ldw1.bsky.social/post/3lik2gv4fxk2f
1. A supportive message to President Zelensky like the ones sent by almost the leaders of every other liberal democracy worthy of the name. I don't see this as performative antagonism, but solidarity with the allies we're going to need. Not doing this might buy the UK some time...
https://news.sky.com/story/starmer-hugs-zelenskyy-ahead-of-crisis-talks-at-no-10-13319657
2. Non-state action from the citizens of liberal democracies who aren't politicians or diplomats who have to put up with their shit - demos outside...
3. Quietly getting on with strengthening relations with the EU, Canada, Mexico et al.
4. Some coalitions, like NATO's Northern Group already exist.
https://defense.info/re-thinking-strategy/2018/05/europes-northern-group-and-deterrence-in-depth/
*OK, maybe not the best example, as they crucified those guys, but hell of a bad look
The US today isn't the same as the US pre-2025.
But it is imperative to make sure we do not underestimate its consequences. With the likes of Tulsi Gabbard in post, the US sharing Intel with Russia is a real possibility.
So no more paying attention to cyber attacks from Russia. No more watching Russia. No more spying on Russian computer/network attacks. Nothing.
https://siliconangle.com/2025/02/28/report-defense-secretary-hegseth-orders-cyber-command-halt-russia-planning/?fbclid=IwY2xjawIvnepleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHXMPpGO7gaXa1FhcswlnYKWVvcfr2wgrV3FBx5jadKvLLpOeccGGHWPxeQ_aem_RqthxixEtqPltCnbrVBM-g
Where do they think the manpower and weaponry is coming from out of the blue? How independent do they believe our nuclear deterrent is?
Should we smother them with tweets? 🤷♂️
I suspect what we'd do is hope America can fix itself on a speedy enough timescale and try to rattle through till then - but that does depend on hope. If hope fails, we're back to the impossible choice.
There is nothing fruitful to come from appeasing a Putin envier who throws their toys out the pram.