The thing about chasing charging speeds on-par with gasoline refueling is that, as I've said zillions of times, day to day charging at home or work can be slow AF and you won't care (so for the love of god get more chargers at workplaces and apartments etc.) and also
ffs you could just be patient
ffs you could just be patient
Reposted from
WIRED
Fast charging is viable, but experts say building the actual charging stations will be the tricky—and potentially very expensive—part.
Comments
Availability of high-speed chargers is 1000 times more important, but people who can't fathom a few breaks on a road trip lose their damn minds.
Habits and infrastructure both need to change imo.
Agreed though about day to day usage.
I covered 850 miles in about 14 hours with only 90 minutes or so being charging or rest time. It's actually a great marathon driving pace.
There was an I-90 coast to coast test where the gas car only led by 6 hours (43 vs 49 hrs).
I'm honestly surprised more fast food joints don't have chargers
Time is not the issue. Reliable stations can be.
One charger I liked was next to a hiking trail and we got to stretch and enjoy some nature.
- being able to drive at 130 km/h for 4.5 h and use less than 70 % of charge* for it
- do the previous point with a trailer (camper, horses, boat)
* or better: a percentage that recharges in those 30 min of the break, 70 is based on assumption of 10%→80% DC charging
(I'm aware of ElektroTrucker, the 732kWh machine still wasn't to attain that, I guess that it will be possible with machines of ~1 MWh and ~2 MW)
Can miss me with that time I came back to find a milkshake on my car windscreen for no good reason though 🫠
You should *probably* be taking regular breaks to stretch anyway
Sitting for extended periods in a regular chair is already ill advised for circulation reasons, but a car where -
Absolutely you need to be getting up and getting blood flowing more often
So with an ~80kWh battery and 800V that would've been probably zero time wasted.
- 11kW destination chargers allowed to recharge fully overnight, wouldn't work with single phase chargers
- temps were above 0'C which helped big time
- fast charging hubs always had empty spots
The problems come when you can’t just park and charge away from home, and have to wait, or go looking for chargers.
Broken chargers are still a problem though.
When roadtripping, do you stop at the bathroom, or pick up lunch/coffee/snacks? Yes? Then that's all the time you need.
And that 20-30 minutes break will do WONDERS for your safety, too. You'll be refreshed and alert, instead of zoning in-and-out.
...also a bunch of commuters imagine their needs like they're driving as a job, & they're not.
But I def stop long enough to charge!
Not wrong, just wrong for me.
Idiocracy is a prophecy coming true.
This is a very rare edge use-case for which EVs are still not ready to fill (and definitely couldn't fill when I was doing this work ten years ago).
Hell after 2 hours both my butt cheeks go numb and I want to stretch and walk a bit anyway.
And while at it, why not eat something and go to the restroom.
You're right that it realistically isn't that big of a deal. If you charge at home/work, it's slow but you likely wouldn't even notice
Because 18 minutes is a bathroom and snack break and who doesn't want one of those on a road trip?
The sticking issue isn't the downtime. It's the overall range. I need as much distance as possible on a single "tank". Maybe I won't use it EVERY time but that's how road trips are done.
Don't drive for eight hours without rest, man.
That's a qualifier in your head. Not a real world thing.
Now for daily driving, I totally see the EV superiority. But I'm always going to value total distance.
Look, I did the drive from Chicago to Orlando in my car. That's 1,200 miles. It needed six charging stops, 81 minutes of total charging time.
Compared to 18 HOURS of driving time, the charging was nothing.
That's really what drives me a little bonkers here. I can't tell you what to value, but it sounds like you're not thinking.
But it doesn't have to bother you. That's in your head. And perhaps you should try it sometime. Turns out I really like it!
I don't see why increasing time and, therefore, cost wouldn't bother someone.
To me, this makes hybrids the best option.
Maybe you think this is some weird Zen Buddhist stuff but this is mostly in your head. I've wasted much more of my time just farting around at home looking at Bluesky than I ever have waiting on a charger.
18 minute charge? Have a coffee and a stretch break. Check out the area you're in. Take a moment and breathe...
It's not stopping every 160 miles on a road trip to recharge but finding a recharge station that's compatible, that works, that's not occupied.
I've driven from Chicago to New Orleans, 1,000 miles each way with zero plans because I know there's a gas station every 50 to 100 miles along the way.
You may feel the EV range anxiety is an irrational hurdle but it's still a hurdle.
To get people to change habits, the new item can't be just as good but be significantly better--directly, personally (not just globally, over centuries).
But for some people to change from the vehicle they know and used for half a century requires more, much more.
It's almost like this is a complete non-issue if someone thinks instead of just reacting.
I don’t think I’m gonna use I5 anymore. 101 takes longer but it’s far less soul crushing.
Insanity-inducing flatness on one side. Sudden, wrinkly hills on the other. The rolling waves of cattle and their poop. The sunrise playing in the valley mists.
It can be very poetic.
Case in point (even though it's technically on 580):
https://bsky.app/profile/neopifex.bsky.social/post/3ldbxootxqk2m
But still, the white lines on the road are ~10 feet and you can see how big these are when they land on them.
https://youtu.be/GiYO1TObNz8?si=zki7jSGBvTga8IE9
[never mind the idiots who think EVs can’t be _driven_ in wet conditions]
Load car on -> treat it as a mobile hotel -> drive car off at other end.
The challenge with the focus on charging speed is that it’s driven (hah!) by marketing. 🤷♂️
Your point is totally valid and I agreeZ
We already know SC congestion is a problem wherever there’s serious EV adoption. Faster speeds means faster times clearing those.
The added 2/3 hrs on what would be an 11 hr trip is not insignificant to me.
Finally, our auto purchases aren’t rational.
- Charger locations
- Charger reliability (broken, reduced speed)
- Waiting in line (or amorphous gaggle) for a charger
And none of that time is spent holding a gas pump.
- someone will need the bathroom
- someone will be thirsty
- there will be a slight problem paying
- the tires will need to be checked
THERE'S YOUR 18 MINUTES
The stop in the middle of the trip could technically be skipped but it fits perfectly with having lunch.
My car will do 85.
I have no way to know how that's going to go until I get there, and then I'm locked in.
100% waiting for a stall to open up or playing tetris to access the charge cable is the part that sucks right now
Electric, you plug it in and go do something else for those 20 minutes. Big difference.
It's like when people say they "saw" the mountains at 80mph.
The biggest station chain in Australia put an EV charger into EVERY station nationwide in 1-2 years
I suspect it's working well for them.
I think it would be valuable for society for governments to advertise this and advise potential car purchasers to rethink their attitudes.
My truck gets over 500 miles on a tank, and that’s too much for my bladder and legs, so 200 miles with a 30 minute break is perfect.
From experience, I don’t recommend cross-US drives in EV or ICE
But... The US is rapidly becoming an evil oppressive state, that WILL subsidize Tesla when push comes to shove.
So, I'm thinking we need to reexamine tariffs on Chinese-made EVs, and encourage investment in Canada.
Heck, I did that on long motorized vehicle trips in the U.S.
EVs just structurally build that into the driving experience and take away the need for you to have self-control on that front
Why does one need the absolute minimum break time? Is everyone doing the cannonball run? Marathon day driving is absolutely miserable.
Maybe it'll work. Maybe. But I'm waiting 20 minutes and the gasoline alternative is 5 minutes. That idea is just not going to sell.
It needs MORE individual attention and service than gas pumps, not less! Build little buildings with rest areas and shops, hire cashiers and attendants to help people, etc
VHS players used to be thousands of dollars and Blockbuster didn’t exist, so they had to buy whatever was watched.
Solutions will be implemented as it becomes more widespread.
Throughput will improve, yes, but the solution to "taken/broken/blocked" is *more* chargers. Not faster chargers.
Our local Lidl even had a period of free charching for customers after they rebuild the shop and put a shitload of solar panels on the roof.
It's not that big a deal to wait 30-60 min for my 80% charge once or twice a week
(I did find a new level 2 a few min walk from my office I can use& can get 80% of my usage if I use it daily)
Super fast would be nice but not required
Say I agree with essentially everything you said: hooray electric, overnight charging is just fine, etc. I want one.
But how do I deal with the PRIVACY NIGHTMARE? These things have crazy telemetry.
Is there a way to get an EV and not sign over every aspect of my life as a marketing exercise?
I'm happy to do without the internet features. After all, my current pre-internet car defintionally doesn't have them and it's fine by me.
Super hard to acquire personal transportation without interacting with the capitalism, you see.
If I had the skills I'd build one from scratch. That's even faintly tempting despite the incredible effort.
Tear the goddamn system down, I'm right there with you, sure. But you're not doing that this evening, and I still have places to be.
"Tear down capitalism!" is never a correct answer to "How do I get an X?"
... well, unless X = 'justice', I suppose.
To be clear, this isn't saying I love it
How do I get ANY vehicle made after 2010 without being absolutely panopticon'd in the process?
This suggests to me that it's probably possible to disable the modem entirely and the car wouldn't care. But I've not looked into it.
Thanks for the replies, either way.
What has gone wrong?
Again, the 1% case: some old grids may require investments, sure. Which isn't rocket science.
But how many grids are adequate or growing at the same speed as the demand grows?
it's no joke - as you pointed out, just the scale of waste energy during the charging process must be staggering. cables even require liquid cooling
People don't need super-duper-extra-cheese-charging often.
People need a simple outlet where the car is usually parked and a simple app to connect it.
Simple plugs in every corner, parking lot, at work, at home.
I think currently the best approach is the one used by taxis in Shanghai. Standardized batteries on car floor and physical swap by automated stations.
I'm all electric, but we bought a PHEV for my wife in December. To date, she has not used any gasoline.
this feels like a 1% of 1% of 1% position to hold.
ICE meaning internal combustion engine and not the modern KKK who terrorizes immigrants.
Refueling gas is faster, but only if you’re in such a rush that you’re not willing to take breaks
Half an hour late because you needed to charge: completely unacceptable, proof that EVs will never be viable.
Your made up hypothetical is not “proof.”
We only needed to add like 20-30% to the battery at each stop so charging time was only like 15 mins or so (we rarely got below a 30% state of charge).
Had a blast.
I don't have to sit there breathing stank to "fuel up". Pull in, plug in car, maybe a minute or less faffing about with an app, go find a bathroom and a snack while the car does its thing.
Which a wait I'd still have to do driving a gas car, but AFTER fueling the car up and parking it somewhere else, and while smelling like gas.
For day to day commuting & shopping, you need adequate slow chargers, at home, on the street, car parks etc.
If you have to take a 30 minute break every 2 hours it adds quite a bit of time to a long journey.
BYD
With 5 Min charging for 200+ miles, petrol is dead.
It wouldn't feel as slow if you could charge anywhere
If you see the battery is getting flat you have plenty of time to plug it in overnight. Otherwise it’s about half an hour for a fast charger.
Just plan better and charge it whenever it gets flat, like your phone before bed.
Yay for continuing shitty trends of the last hundred years yet again!
When I'm almost certainly going to be taking 20 minute breaks every few hours anyway
A genius would come up with charging "service stations" where subscribers could use a private pod to relax for half an hour, enjoy complimentary drinks & snacks, and even take a power nap while their car charges.
One of my big political hobby horses, before facing ICE made me renew my passport, was pushing for every single parking space in California to support EV charging, basically for the "slow charging is mostly fine" reason.
It's a different language. They don't care about any of this.
If you NEED a gas car for a road trip somewhere in the boonies at some point, you can always rent one.
(Or then there's the ones too impatient to resist the urge to leave the pump unattended...)
What I don't miss: being surrounded by fire hazards.
Charging at home is **more convenient**
Asking Americans to be patient.
Could they also be kind, tolerant, unbigoted, intelligent and not root for Hitler to destroy the world?
That would be nice.
Don't need stalls of 300kW chargers at apartments/etc.
You just adjust your routine and planning accordingly - some are just anxious towards change.
That infrastructure isn't actually that hard or expensive to build, we just choose not to because politics
Nobody needs an ultra-fast charger at home or even at work, you just need an charger
And building those is much, much cheaper
Not the hardest learning curve: just use an EV a week and anyone could figure up how much time the car isn't moving and it's parked near an outlet.
Having to go to a pump and stand there with a pistol in hand to dump liquid in and inhale fumes is time lost doing so.
It's way more convenient to plug the car at home / supermarket / diner and go to do something else, instead of wasting your life at a pump.
I wonder what we could do with all the space gas stations take up.
Also, you still aren't happy because you aren't patient enough.
I never think about charging stations in mine.
And rental cars aren't cheap. It turns a cheap trip into an expensive one.
I feel like EVs are a tough sell to low-ish income Canadians.
I have encountered all of these on road trips in *California*.
Also, the census defines an apartment as any building with two or more residences in it. So duplexes, converted single family homes, etc are counted.
Level 2 charging infrastructure is cheap. I am so tired of this world which says "well of *course* we install circuits in every single unit for stoves, dryers, water heaters and such but it's just too damn hard to do that in the parking lot"
So, maybe high speed charging could work as an intermediate solution?
It's very slow, but every car can do it. It just needs a level 1 portable EVSE. Which lots of cars come with (mine did, in fact).
- 110v x 12a = ~1.32kw
- 1.32kw/hr = ~4mi/hr
- 12hr * ~4mi/hr = 48mi/day
- 40mi/day = Avg US Daily Travel
It is not rocket science to run wires from a building to a parking lot. And even if there's an issue with building capacity or access to existing circuits is difficult, it is not rocket science to arrange a new service drop.
Not sure how it works in China, but in Spain, apartments are the norm, even in towns like mine which has a population of ~14.500. And, based on an article I read, only 25% of homes in my provoince have acces to a garage.
You would rather comfortably sit in a traffic jam than be squeezed like a sardine by sweaty strangers twice a day 5 days a week.
Even then, I'd take a break for a restroom and a coffee on these trips anyways, so nothing really changed since getting a relatively slow charging EV.
Really we use the regular 240 charger here almost always cause the fast charger draws more than the solar can do.
Long recharging times are a safety feature, not a negative of the tech.
Any thoughts on what would be a better analogy?
2- Batteries wore out faster
3- Sell more battery packs
4- Profit
don’t be so judgy
ffs
That all said, these days I’m still in favor of fewer cars over all, but given the would-you-rather, electric for sure.
Never mind that daily driving would not involve these.
It's emotional.
Pay $0.02/mi. 5mi/kwh @ .10/kwh.
In many parts of the world, there is more of a culture around the ‘pit stop’.
Go in, have some noodles, some tea, talk with the people around you who you won’t ever see again.
Having the ability for rapid refueling has important roles to play with long distance travel and transport, but not every vehicle will need it all the time. Your regular "fast charge" is pretty quick these days.
The only time I need a stop at a fast charger outside of road trips is on the odd occasion I head up to Milwaukee.
And I stop one time.
Fast charging is just not a common thing in a just world where people have access to charging at home or work.
Charging availability at shopping destinations helps.
Displaying wealth advertises a high carbon lifestyle. EVs invert this by creating a relationship between wealth and the display of social responsibility. The threat of cheap EVs is they disrupt this
And if you work from home it’s probably more
I’ve been using a 110 outlet to charge for years
And our trip across the country last year averaged about 30 minutes to charge every 280 miles or so
People: "Yay for Tesla!"
BYD: "We have our own chargers too, and can charge even faster..."
People: "Hmm, not sure I like the sound of this"
When someone tells me they made a sedan that can charge at near MW rates I ask them what is the battery warranty and has anyone made a claim yet and how did that go?
If you have the energy to bother, find my old Twitter account and go to way back when where I was arguing about the damage heat can do to batteries at higher loads - I'm merely pointing out the (convenient) hypocrisy
There is a lot of power involved, but with presumably many more smaller individual cells the reduced charging time doesn't seem crazy.
Propaganda
Overnight charging my Lyriq with a level 2 charger is for sure sufficient for my needs 99% of the time but if there was a 5 minute option for the rare circumstances I'm doing a long drive that would be great.
Both is good.
I get way too much charge just by plugging it at home that I don't even need to plug it at work.
People are just too anxious about charge and range.
I would assume EV owners would just do the same.
Have it at a park. Where I can walk around. Enjoy the community. Shop at some local shops.
In Australia there is a PSA regarding driver fatigue. It’s as dangerous as driving drunk “Every 2 hours, stop, revive, survive.”
2 freeway hours of driving is manageable for most EVs.
Going for lunch? Plug it in.
Going shopping at the mall? Plug it in.
That's why fast charging is important, not because people are impatient (or thick as implied).
https://Exro.com
This is a silly idea which would require standardization of battery design and they would limit the functionality of cars. It would also mean we need way more batteries to exist so we can have idle packs sitting around.
Not average commuters. Most folks just need simple slow charging.
Simple, slow AC charging at apartment complexes, on the street, and at work will take care of everybody's daily needs.
Fast charging can handle the odd road trip. Swap stations chase an edge case in a dumb way.
You can improve charging tech to the point of absurdity, but ICE cars will always "refuel" quicker.
Watch goalposts shift as charging tech improves, because it'll never be as good as ICE in this one metric.
The truth as you say is that recharge time just doesn't matter.