I get a lot of pushback from younger friends when I say that Bush was still a worse president than Trump *so far.* In terms of death and destruction, it's not even close
I'm going to have to push back on that because even the highest estimates of excess deaths caused by the Iraq war don't measure up to the direct death toll of only Americans from COVID-19.
Carefully-reasoned support from editors of New Yorker, New Republic, Atlantic, and Fareed Zakaria, followed by a round of back-slapping and professional advancement for everyone.
Yup! I watched when they rolled in on their tanks! They destroyed that country, looted it and left it high and dry. Then they have the nerve to drag Cheney out! I was never thrilled about Liz. She’s no hero to me. trump just went over her line.
Do you mean the constant gas lighting and evidence manipulation when presenting the case for invasion, the mismanagement and constant underestimation of the war itself or the disregard for life (especially Iraqi).
One might reasonably argue that the Trump administration isn’t going to work, just as the US occupation of post-Saddam Iraq didn’t work. Hope our power grid at least holds up.
Among other parallels: after the war went south Bush won reelection in no small part by demonizing gay people and their fight for marriage equality (and ‘San Francisco style liberals’). Trump ran by demonizing trans people and those who support them. Two failed administrations revived by hate.
Let me guess. Does it start with Republicans uniting to piss on our leg and tell us it’s raining, followed by a self imposed shitstorm that takes a generation to end?
Not so sure about that. (1) 9/11 gave them a powerful boost to rally support, they would have desperately struggled to build momentum without it. And (2) they had real talent. Cheney was frighteningly competent. Rumsfeld was smart, just not as smart as he thought he was.
A doofus like Doug Feith would be a high point on the Trump team.
I’d look more at Putin’s team around the time of the apartment bombings. Though he needed the full backing of FSB to pull it off, so maybe not. What he does have is tech billionaires who really like control through infotech.
Bush/Cheney didn’t idealize authoritarianism. Complete power is Trump’s goal. Institutions are already diminished. Seems like someone is instructing him to dismantle media opposition like Putin did.
And the irony is that Bush Jr's failure in Iraq and other parts of his presidency was the biggest thing that broke the Republican party into pieces for Trump to Frankenstein together.
IMO, these candidates lack the werewithal to get bad things done like Cheney and Rumsfeld. I actually liked the Gaetz appointment because he's a showboat with no proven (legal) competence, was less likely to do harm than someone like Bondi with experience.
I would counter, look at the way PE firms raid companies, strip the value, and leave them for bankruptcy might be more accurate. He has no desire to govern, merely inflict as much pain as possible on his “enemies” while stripping the gov’t of its purpose and treasure for his own profit and vengeance
Please tell me that 20 years from now revisionists won’t be saying Trump seemed reasonable by comparison to the current crop of silver spoon fed idiots.
I was thinking about this yesterday. W let Cheney hire Rumsfeld and they hired a slew of Iraq hawks. Trump seems to be building an identical military echo chamber of what I guess you'd call Mexico hawks. Didn't go well last time.
I'm afraid you're right. I was an intelligence analyst back then, and we were all sitting around going "what the fuck are we doing?" Now here we are again, saying "what the fuck are we doing?" wondering how it happened again, and what we can do to prevent the worst.
It’s worse: libertarian exploitation yes. But now in the mix: autocracy. == We are facing a libertarian autocracy. That it happens here is totally new. No real comparisons, just some analogies: to Thatcherism and to fascism. But it is new.
Plus throwing out everything the previous administration did (Clinton’s warnings about Al Qaeda, Obama’s pandemic playbook) because Democrats don’t know anything.
More like yelling mission accomplished when no one knew there was a mission at all. Did you even know you were at war with eastasia? But you always have been.
You beat me to the punch. Although bear in mind that six years ago, after the Red Hen Incident, I injudicously suggested that perhaps SHS could afford to miss a meal, and ALL HELL BROKE LOOSE.
Ideological messianism, prizing loyalty over competence, a dedication to outsourcing government functions to enrich political allies, a conviction that propaganda can overcome the bleakest realities, blithe dismissal of empiricism of any kind
The purpose was always to dismantle governance, create distrust, and open the paths to the oligarchy to rob and pillage the public treasure in the name of the working class. A working class that has never had class consciousness. The voters hand it over to them.
When I hear the "Democrats don't know how to talk to the working class," I think: The American working class is steeped in bigotry, ignorance, and superstition; how do you talk to them? I object to the notion that there is some noble inner quality to the working class that will save us.
The invasion of Iraq had a scale of corruption that is hard to even wrap your head around. Just a bottomless pit of never ending grift. I suspect Trump will beat it easily.
This headline is so upsetting I can't even read the article.
Our leadership has truly failed us...Trumpers have a right to be upset (about some things). Unfortunately, they've put their trust in a con man with no interest in solving their problems. Trump is going to rob us blind.
Trump pardoned people who committed war crimes during that war. He lied about seeing people in New Jersey dancing after the attacks on 9/11. He lied about not supporting the war at the time, something that was debunked 8 years ago. He only “disavowed” it years after the fact.
I don’t think Trumpers have any right to be upset about that story. It happened under a Republican president, during a war started on false pretenses by Republicans, which was supported by a lot of the GOP politicians who support Trump today.
20 years from now, what percent of the public will see trump as an example of the kind of person who shouldnt be president? 90%? Or will we still be at 50%?
For the next few years lets keep in mind that one of Harris's supposed missteps was that she couldn't think of anything she'd do differently than Biden
Yeah, they get all chesty bragging about not killing babies and get real uncomfortable when you point out abortion ban states have higher maternal AND baby death rates.
TY!! yes, the parallels with W days are astounding. right down to public disdain for him from day 1 (remember folks throwing rotten eggs and tomatoes during his inaugural parade?) the Rs have been the party of *whatevertheF we can get away with* coming from pissy grievance and revenge since nixon.
also, recall rove smugly stating the agenda was to keep Rs in power "in perpetuity." bannon just announced they'll be in power for 50 years; he's become monster rove's frankenstein! that suskind quote, likely from rove, about the "reality-based community" (has its own wiki page!) haunts me still.
I don't think it's dismissal. They don't care. lying works for them. They do what they feel like, and lie about it. Reality is relevant to them, but they live in a world insulated from the consequences of their policies.
Yeah, that's why my wife and I began spending vacation time abroad. Obama was a false dawn because Democrats never dropped the free traders and billionaires. Oh well. It took the Great Depression to get the New Deal. Here we go
That's generous. This will be so much more chaos though. Extreme personality disorders like Trump create a next level dysfunction. I think this covers it so well. I mean, Bush was weak too, but Trump is pathologically unwell plus weak.
Yet even less competent then first fiasco of an administration because far fewer positions held by anyone competent.
No honor among thieves or grifters. Predict they will turn upon one another quickly.
Fun fact: Paul Bremer is apparently a ski-instructor now, on top of the usual thinktank chairs that a person like him accumulates after absolutely fucking up an entire country.
Not to mention indiscriminate “Debaathification” that destroyed the ranks of the civil service and likely radicalized them and immiserated their families
Trump is a showman. It's going to be a circus, featuring the most garish acts his clowns can conjure. Whatever keeps the crowds coming and the dollars flowing is what Trump will deliver.
Also a profound misunderstanding of the country they seek to subdue/transform, its people and institutions – and countries, people and institutions in general
I was reminded of this echoing observation by an errant Like today, but despite their acceleration past neoconservatism and outright hostility to its primary architects, these new bosses are same as the old bosses. https://bsky.app/profile/sidslang.bsky.social/post/3l47l7bzfix2a
It’s a good analogy, but what’s terrifying is that the people responsible for that disaster were quite a bit more competent, intelligent, experienced (and less corrupt) than the people in Trump’s orbit.
Exiling 10 or 20 M people and building high tariff walls without increasing prices or disrupting agriculture and construction will require the equivalent of the miracle of the loaves and fishes. And Trump isn't you-know-who even if his followers think he is.
I think it’s going to look like the first scene in the dark knight. Just- a massive heist. But then the escaping busses will break down/crash into crowds, mowing down civilians. Then the guy in all the caked on makeup will tell ridiculous lies all day every day.
Speaking of which, Mike Pompeo is truly pissed that he's been left out of the payoff projects. Trump has had 4 yrs. to nurse his grievances and he's 🌠maniacally programmed for maximum pain for his "enemies" & max profit for himself.
I thought the exact same thing. My own nephew joined the National Guard, not knowing he would be sent to war and ended up with brain damage from an IED.
now asians, latins, and various other folks get the joy of brutal fruitless toil of finding vast swaths of their kinfolk throwing total loyalty to those who are never held to a standard, and venom towards those who always must
They are calling this time the fourth Industrial Revolution. The idea of “peace” = submission and acceptance or turning a blind eye will be the main use for propaganda.
I'm not disagreeing with you at all, infact I think you're 1000% correct.
But with the Trump administration having a second go at destroying democracy, the supposed party of law and order are now saying the quiet part out loud.
Hmm...
Perhaps the other side of the coin is this.
Any line of communication you keep open in good faith is a step forward in a positive direction.
Remember that the Republican party holds control by the slimmest of margins and winning over just one vote will kill any stupid trump plans.
@driftglass.bsky.social @blugal.bsky.social said it best on their podcast The Professional Left the Trump Administration is going to be about 3 things - cruelty, corruption and incompetence
Kakistocracy ~ government by the corrupt and incompetent. The oligarchs put him in office and he will do their bidding. It has NEVER been about "we the people" and always about how the rich could get more and pay less. Everything for profit is a disaster.
What I find unfathomable is the critique of Harris' campaign by the left. In a binary election the motto ought to be first do no harm. By that standard Trump voters deserve to be shamed for the rest of their lives. They heard what he said and saw what he did, yet voted for him anyway.
There are a lot of characters who want the Cheney job of being the administrator/organizer who puts the bureaucracy to work (Miller and Bannon come to mind). But instead of working thru bureaucracy, they want to get rid of it and replace it with cronies.
While it took Bush/Cheney admin 8 years to destroy the country, Trump only needed 4 the first go around. Next two years will be unlike anything we've experienced before.
I thought exactly this yesterday as I was reading about his cabinet picks plans to use our military in Mexico. It’s the GOP way to start unnecessary wars. And surprise! They then profit off their military investments.
This is a useful analogue. To me, the most immediately horrifying prospect is the concentration camps we know he will begin building from day one. And the construction and supervision of these facilities of performative cruelty will be doled out to the most callous, least competent men in America.
I'm posting from (North) Texas, to remind folks that Trump left office in 2021 without building much of "the Wall" at all ... "begin building from day one" is more likely "begin grifting from day one".
Manufacture a war, lie us into it, spend $757 billion on it, and create a decade of civil war and occupation, no discovery of WMD, and the deaths of more than 4,400 American troops?
Just look to Hungary, this is what they want, a kleptocratic, theocratic oligarchy. I keep wondering if the perfect country already exists why not go live there? Why change your country?
Yeah in hindsight, it wasn't great for the Dems to tout the acceptance of the authors of the Torture Regime. This Trump Thing is Cheneyism coming home, roided out and PTSD'd to the gills.
So the news media is going to normalize easily disprovable lies and bury stories of corruption and malfeasance to appear loyal. A frightening thought, honestly
Ugh. Been thinking about that time a lot lately. Another scumbag who got re-elected. SO many people fell for the war propaganda (but now, try & find someone who’ll admit it). It was awful. But at the very least, I never feared W would not leave in Jan. ‘09.
Both the Iraqi provisional authority and the Trump Whitehouse were staffed by heritage vetted ideological hacks with minimal experience but maximum right wing credentials.
That was a formative time for me. I had never considered myself particularly left-leaning, but the 2003 build up to this war and the near universal support sent me away from NPR and over to Amy Goodman at Pacifica for my news.
me too!! precisely! in fact, i discovered DN! thru my public access tv station at the time; little roses emerging from the shitshow. but that was when npr was under incredible defunding and dissolution threats. a koch bro was on the board! better now, but still struggling to speak truth to power.
I would also look at Prohibition. For 13 years, a minority got its way and made more than half the country criminal with unforeseen outcomes like the rise in Gangsterism fueled by bootlegging. Again it was Republicans who made the rest of us live dry lives.
Prohibition was the worst mistake we ever made as a government, and numerous beautiful things were said upon its repeal. I’d like to think we won’t make that same mistake again, but I’m older and wiser than to make that bet now.
Also consider Reagan's 2nd term when he was essentially succumbing to Alzheimer's and other people actually ran the gov't. Nancy made decisions based on astrology.
Calling it now: Homeland Security will be dusting off the terrorism advisory scale and giving it a fresh Fentanyl-themed update in an attempt to convince Americans that
“I can't tell you if the use of force in Iraq today would last five days, or five weeks or five months. But it certainly isn't going to last any longer than that.”
Watching the appointments, it is somewhat like the Bush administration if all the people had been either 50 iq points less intelligent, or just completely overtly out for their own profit.
Bush W kinda played by the rules (well, except getting his bro to stop vote counting!!).
A lot of the Bush-era wackiness came about because of 9/11, which was a truly shocking and traumatizing event that radically shifted the Overton Window.
COVID could have been that, except that Trump (playing against type) chose to downplay it.
We had all better hope that Trump doesn't have a 9/11.
I’m guessing you mean shock and awe followed by looting, pillaging, while securing the oil ministry and letting the mercenaries do war crimes and abu ghraib?
There no one bad idea or action to point at. Iraq, Afghanistan, Andrew Jackson's administration, Nazi Germany, Gilead, Oceana, Smoot-Hawley, fictional or not, they take away the worst from them and insist it will work.
Conservatives gotta conservative. It wouldn't matter if it were DJT or some other handmaiden of the monied interests salivating at the prospect of ripping us off via the latest right wing stooge
Think globally, act locally, as always. Municipal elections next year, mid terms the following. Right wing thugs want decent people to be bewildered, down and in a world of crap. Don't give them what they want.
There's PLENTY we can do, even if it starts with nibbling at the margins.
You and all who oppose bootlicking. Happy to help where and when I can. I was never a NYC resident but could see the GWB from my Ft. Lee apartment so... close!
I read To Start a War a couple years ago and it was informative to how we got here. My takeaway was how much the administration was run on conspiracy theories even in the face of evidence that counters the narrative. I highly recommend @draperrobert.bsky.social book.
I was just saying yesterday that I wonder how long it will be until we hear that the billions committed to deporting migrants will start to show up missing without a trace.
A salient feature of the unlawful Iraq War was the almost universal support it got from the broadcast media. MSNBC fired talk-show host Phil Donahue because management deemed him insufficiently pro-war and a potential obstacle to the truthless war effort.
Maybe in outcome, but not in intention. W was trying to respond to a threat on the nation he was leading. TFG doesn’t GAF about us or anyone but himself.
If you mean real, legitimate threat, you're right. If you mean a perceived and political threat... I do think the Bush Admin was convinced Hussein was a regional threat with global potential.
I think W was a business guy who inherited a great decent economy until 9/11 put him in a position where he had to lean on his advisors. He wasn’t a CIA director or a trained military leader. From that day on, it was Cheney’s show. 100%
I think Cheney saw potential opportunities from the time he was tapped to lead the VP search and began manipulating W from them. You and I are on the same page here, even if we are reading different paragraphs.
There was no treat. The weapons inspectors were clear that there were no WMDs to be found in Iraq. The US got pissed about 9/11 and invaded the wrong country. It would be hillarious, like a Monty Python sketch, if it hadn’t killed so many iraqis.
The MAGAs will love it, love it, love it and the MSM will cheer for it, cheer for it, cheer for it right up the moment it completely collapses and suddenly everyone hated it all along and never supported it.
“…direct force applied to command and control centers, selective denial of information and dissemination of disinformation, overwhelming combat force, and rapidity of action.”
Each of the first 100 days will be worse than the one that came before it.
Comments
"When it comes to paying contractors, the sky is the limit; when it comes to financing the basic functions of the state, the coffers are empty."
The Shock Doctrine, 2007
didn't matter.
marches aren't going to work if there's no actual leverage behind them.
so, where's our leverage?
I’d look more at Putin’s team around the time of the apartment bombings. Though he needed the full backing of FSB to pull it off, so maybe not. What he does have is tech billionaires who really like control through infotech.
At the risk of getting yelled at for fatphobia: would Trump even fit in one?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/feb/08/usa.iraq1
Our leadership has truly failed us...Trumpers have a right to be upset (about some things). Unfortunately, they've put their trust in a con man with no interest in solving their problems. Trump is going to rob us blind.
Remember, when you tell them about the fact that they are killing people, this makes them happy.
We have to die for their prophesy to "come true", and it starts in Gaza.
Once those people exist they aren't worth caring about.
Not only do they not care about the harm they cause, they do it intentionally and think it is good.
They will only listen to people they perceived as "godly" if anyone at all.
https://newrepublic.com/article/188785/donald-trump-weak-second-administration-chaos
No honor among thieves or grifters. Predict they will turn upon one another quickly.
Trump has created the twilight zone in America!
People would rather take refuge in comfortable lies than face the revealing light of reality.
that's jumped the racial barrier
now asians, latins, and various other folks get the joy of brutal fruitless toil of finding vast swaths of their kinfolk throwing total loyalty to those who are never held to a standard, and venom towards those who always must
Don’t recall anything close to Trump vicious personal vindictiveness during Cheney-Bush days.
But with the Trump administration having a second go at destroying democracy, the supposed party of law and order are now saying the quiet part out loud.
Nothing says America like playing ball against those that tried to literally kill you.
#WeAreFvcked
Perhaps the other side of the coin is this.
Any line of communication you keep open in good faith is a step forward in a positive direction.
Remember that the Republican party holds control by the slimmest of margins and winning over just one vote will kill any stupid trump plans.
Malevolence moderated by incompetence.
2000 election judicial coup
A corrupt conservative Supreme Court
Failure to prevent catastrophe and exploiting it to divide the country
Spinning up the road to fascism with invasion of Iraq/GWoT
Leaving a disaster for incoming dem admin to clean up and be blamed for
But, Paul Bremer on down were true believers in the unfettered free market world they got to build, with graft thrown in.
Trump and his gang are just in it for the smash and grab.
And then Trump screwed over our only remaining allies in what used to be Iraq.
"Seig heil to the president gasman"
"The company lost the war today"
ahh presidency
This actually has some legs.
1) We're all gonna die
2) Unless we invade Mexico
https://bsky.app/profile/jazzhandmedowns.bsky.social/post/3lbygzjtlbc2v
Bush W kinda played by the rules (well, except getting his bro to stop vote counting!!).
COVID could have been that, except that Trump (playing against type) chose to downplay it.
We had all better hope that Trump doesn't have a 9/11.
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/26065/imperial-life-in-the-emerald-city-by-rajiv-chandrasekaran/
There's PLENTY we can do, even if it starts with nibbling at the margins.
And was W avenging his father’s war or was the same damn administration made up of Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc finishing their own mess?
Details matter unless we’re attacking windmills
I see a direct line from Nixon through to Trump which would include Reagan, Bush and W.
I wonder what Tea Party 2.0 will be?
Each of the first 100 days will be worse than the one that came before it.