Rich people are so mentally lazy from being privileged that as long as you aren't directly insulting them, they won't even notice they were being made into fools until the article is published
I am honestly shocked that a Professor who studied the holocaust has such woolly thinking on what is her area of expertise. It isn’t hard anti-semitism is bad, there is space for legitimate criticism of Israel, disappearing people off the streets and sending them foreign gulags is very very bad.
I probably under stated. Israel should be criticized for perpetuating a humanitarian crisis and likely engaging in war crimes. Israel should also have the right to exist as should a free Palestinian state.
She showed Republican-level hypocrisy there, essentially saying that it is ok to be the jackbooted thugs disappearing people, if those people are pro-Palestine.
It’s so bizarre to me that she can’t just go—‘OK, I was mistaken’…She doesn’t even have to say what her initial view was. Maybe she really wants to see innocent people disappeared unjustly and is fine with walking into the fascist’s trap in exchange. HUGE mistake. ENORMOUS.
I’m happy to say it. Everything he does is bad, done with/for greed, malice and hate. Therefore any possible slight momentary alignment is at best fleeting since his end goal is ALWAYS and only self-serving.
she criticized trump, probably by mentioning that he and everyone around him are wildly antisemitic fascists. but she has to keep bunting because otherwise they might only send 19 trillion dollars to israel
"It's better to have a lawless administration that grabs people off the street than one that might apply the Leahy Law to Israel's government. Honestly, some of those people needed to be grabbed off the street."
Imagine thinking that you've saved yourself by going off record and then realizing later that the context of the interview and the follow up questions make it very clear EXACTLY what you said and why
When your defense of Trump is his petulant thumb in the eye of the embassy move, it’s clear that she’s a terrible person who could give a single shit about the democracy he’s destroying.
It's amazing how these Zionist apologists come out of the woodwork to support Trump as long as he's open to killing Palestinians and punishing anyone who speaks out against Israel by calling him anti-Semitic.
I’m sick of this “Trump Derangement Syndrome” reflexive bullshit. We’re not talking about standard differences over policy. We’re talking about the denial of due process. That is wrong.
The whole conservative concern trolling about identity politics being weaponized was true all along but it ended up being vindictive people whose only identity is Jewish and Israel state supporting AND willing to use their identity as cover to subjugate Arabs and anyone who supports human rights.
I have admired her prior work very much. This, not so much. She seems to be under cross-examination here, and I would have to say it was pretty effective.
What makes Chotiner so good is he gets people who fancy themselves as intellectuals and then they immediately implode when called on their obvious cowardice. Some fun examples:
More than anything else, that was the most damning sentence, summing up exactly the knots Lipstadt is tying herself up in to avoid saying out loud she got played for a rube.
"I have called that out" is probably the most telling answer, given that those are things that enforce the fact that Trump and his cronies are actually raging antisemites themselves. When Choitner brings up them being "pro-Israel" she knows he's caught her out and her wheels start panic spinning.
"Obviously, my sympathies are being cynically manipulated. Obviously. And yes, that calls into question my ability to articulate the problems clearly. Correct.
It's all very troubling and should give pause to anyone.
I would like to be chotinered just to see how he does it. Do I have a bunch of hypocrisies that need highlighting? Maybe it could be a new type of therapy.
Always remember, Zionists are to Jews what Evangelicals are to Christians. They don't really care about the religion, they just use it to gain power, wealth, and real estate. I like Jewish people but I wish nothing but terrible things for Zionists.
Exactly. And I am willing to bet that there are a lot of Zionists who identify as Christian or non-religious. Real Jewish folk don't want to see anyone be subjected to genocide because of what happened to them. Using the Holocaust as a weapon of guilt to justify colonialism is unacceptable to them.
Christian Zionists are a real thing. Of course, they just want Israel to hold the land until the second coming and then send all Jews straight to hell, so they’re not really friends of Israel…
Right. It's why they hate Muslims. Muslims are the roadblock to rebuilding the temple. The Christians couldn't give two shits about Jews beyond them rebuilding that stupid temple.
I’m sorry I read so many books in grade school on the holocaust and genocide (ones highly recommended by Jewish and Israeli academics) that I was properly equipped to recognize another incoming or happening genocide. Should I have not read the books so I was easier to manipulate?
I meant that the phrase “never again” should mean a commitment against ethnic cleansing genocide against ANY group not to only work to fight it against MY group.
Palestinians are Semetic as well (see Hebrew and Arabic). Being opposed to Hamas and Israeli State actions (war crimes by both) is not an affront to Judaism or Jewish people. Not all Jews are Semites, most Palestinians are. Most people are not opposed to Jews, just the actions of Israel. What it is.
it doesn't literally mean that; it's a euphemism coined by anti-Jewish bigots: "The compound word antisemitismus was first used in print in Germany in 1879 as a "scientific-sounding term" for Judenhass (lit. 'Jew-hatred'), and it has since been used to refer to anti-Jewish sentiment alone."
It seems quite unfortunate that our government is conflating a term for the hatred of Jews to represent many people's abhorence of the actions of a state actor, well beyond safety concerns (I believe) of their citizens. Is there a vehicle for change here? Thank you for the education.
It is tragic that the woman whi described denial of history so eloquently can not see the same history being made. She cries for due process but the outcome in question is immoral no matter what the process!
People decide what their priorities are.
She has decided that Israel’s genocidal shenanigans are more worthy of protection.
So now all she has to do is bend everything toward that direction.
“So we have all these horrific things with immigration, with doge dismantling the federal bureaucracy, with Trump basically destroying the Atlantic alliance. But we also have, on the other side of the ledger, moving the Embassy to Jerusalem in the first term. It shouldn’t be all black and white.”
"yeah, trump might be doing bad things, reaching beyond what he's authorized to do, legally speaking, but wouldn't it be worse if a future leftist president started doing things like that to implement their vision of things?"
If you read the article, she’s surprisingly admiring of the Trump Administration even when their antisemitism is pointed out multiple times. Because they’re going after pro-Palestine protestors. She’ll always redirect back to university protestors when pushed.
I did read it (in horror and with mouth agape). And I understand the analogy you're making. But I disagree with it. Irving sued her. Are you suggesting that if Irving had also been pro-Israel, Lipstadt would have just paid him without fighting?
Interesting to note on this question when Chotiner mentioned not everything with the Trump administration is black and white that Lipstadt ran with that and considered "black" to be bad things and "white" to be good things rather than the normal definition of the idiom. Kind of telling on herself.
What I read is that she's just another person willing to make deals with the devil as long as she can get what she wants. The leopards won't eat *her* face!
She is wholly incapable of facing the truth. She is lost in her own world of fighting antisemitism and avoids looking around at reality.
We need to stop giving these people any sort of platform. Like seriously why do we need to read yet another out of touch white person talk about how fascism isn’t so bad since it’s not personally affecting them?
As I met people protesting around Austin, it was shocking but not surprising how much institutional contempt the Biden administration gave to us and then had the gal to try and give a speech at the LBJ library, a many whose legacy was imploded by the Vietnam war.
I, as a non-horrible person, would be terrified to be interviewed by him. It says so much about all these horrible people that they think they’re going to come across as reasonable in one of these conversations.
Maybe I’m being anal retentive, but if you’re going to be interviewed about your support for a controversial government policy, shouldn’t you be prepared for difficult questions.
What’s the evidence that universities have been dismissive of antisemitism in action (rather than dismissive of complaints that other students are anti-Israel)? There’s just so much space on the continuum that Lipstadt seems to be ignoring.
It is really sad to see a heroic figure like Deborah Lipstadt doing this weak-ass both-sides routine. I would like to think she’s just become an ornery old lady now
Over and over again she blames the victims for their abuse. “If only
Universities took antisemitism seriously this wouldn’t have happened” give me a break.
This is the best case to use to explain intersectionality. If you're Jewish, there may be some self-interest in *not* supporting Nazis when they go after a different group of people.
It seems like trumpism is just the banner of people incapable of feeling empathy for those who are different. That's the whole thing in this interview. Same with Rubio, or Miller, or Hegseth...Trump gives them permission
Like the answer to that sort of behavior is intervene, get said speaker to apologize and acknowledge it was insensitive, get them to do better
And if they continue said behavior, expel them rather than deport them
As I read it, a key mistake was buying into the idea that universities failed and were condoning antisemitism. The easiest way out of this trap is to say that she was wrong, it was overreach, and there is more nuance in the situation. But she can’t say that because it’s the whole narrative thus far
If someone wants to support liberal democracy just say ‘OK, I was wrong about stuff.’ Some won’t forgive but indifferent reactions to 10/7 (often lied about in the first place) got some into a reactionary position. OK, get out of it. Stick to your guns, and you’re letting yourself be used by Trump.
Also, notable that she doesn't apply this standard to people she accuses of "Trump Derangement Syndrome". For that, she can just read people's minds and know that they aren't really just mad about all the very real awful shit Trump has done.
Like, as soon as she had such a bad start to the interview after he lobbed her such as softball, I wonder if his eyes lit up or if he actually just feels sympathy for their stupidity
The impression I’ve always gotten is he finds it frustrating to ask a clear and informed question and get waffling motivated reasoning as an answer. Like, of course in your head you’re a good person with good reasons, but articulate a cogent thought for a second here.
I mean, the third question, "What do you think the Trump Administration is doing to fight antisemitism and, in that sense, uphold democracy?", is withering, in a dry way
Those are the words of a person who desperately wants to believe that they—unlike hundreds of others before them—will be able to use Trump for their own designs without it tarnishing or harming them. Dumb dumb dumb
There are times, and this is one, when I regret the lack of a "burst out laughing and now I'm mopping tea off my keyboard" emoji. Thank you for an actual belly laugh in these truly bleak times. Now, to go find a sponge.
He’s just so so good at this. I’m not even sure I can describe why? A constant reference back to the issue, no matter the interview, when they try to over complicate?
Perhaps using the same tool that counter-apologists to Christianity use? When someone uses the debate tactic of "spreading" (bringing in unrelated topics), you circle back to the main question and get them to say what they really mean. (In that, it's why so many Christians wave away enslavement.)
If you start with the premise that any conversation about antisemitism in the US can only be related to what's happening on university campuses, I'd call that a blind spot
Back in 2019, Dylan Matthews (writer for Vox) tweeted:
I worked with @IChotiner one summer and he was an incredibly kind and generous colleague but if he called me for an interview I would sand off my fingerprints and flee to a country without an extradition treaty.
The interview, and these comments, are all so perfect of their kind that they should be preserved for the ages, immortal. Thank you, Jamelle, Isaac, commenters and, last and least, those who have willingly agreed to be interviewed/disassembled by Mr Chotiner.
You'd think a Holocaust historian could recognize trademark signs of authoritarian fascism rather than taking pains to hand it to Mike Pompeo and Marco Rubio.
The problem is that there a type of Holocaust historian who cares about all genocidal acts and a type that does not. I'm not in doubt which one the interviewee is here
Yes, genocide studies has a cadre of scholars who will either not acknowledge other genocides, or actively discourage comparisons with the Holocaust for fear it will diminish the exceptional nature of what happened in Germany. Sadly, even Lemkin, who coined the term genocide, held that view.
And the rest of us are really tired of that type of Holocaust historian getting the limelight, trust me. This is incredibly embarrassing for the field.
Is the Nazi ethnic cleansing so utterly different than what Israel is doing right now? Are there no similarities from which we can learn? If Lipstadt is so specialized in the former that she cannot see some of it in the latter, then her competence as historian is suspect.
Stating that erecting a protest camp or breaking a university rule (!) should result in (arrest, possibly and) expulsion from the United States is disqualifying.
His appointment of Lipstadt as antisemitism envoy confirms Biden's crippling Zionism. Opposing genocide is how we protect our minorities.
without reading too much into the comments she makes off the record to which the interviewer alludes, it certainly seems as though she's quite afraid to say anything more than mildly critical of the people in power.
Those interviews are necessary to get this content because everyone imagines they will be one of those cases when more likely than not they will be one of the shit shows.
There are few public intellectuals about whom I have more mixed feelings that Lipstadt. She has done some brilliant work, but it seems she always ends up in the news for the wrong reasons.
The thing that is maddening about people like this is - no wonder we get accused of dual loyalty when she refuses to call a spade a spade just because … an embassy move to Jerusalem that made a two state solution more difficult? She deserved the Chotinering.
Excellent by @ichotiner.bsky.social as always. One quibble is I would have had him challenge her on her clear presumption that all Jewish students felt under siege by or were in opposition to the protests over Gaza. Lots of Jewish students were in the thick of the protests.
I would like to hear her talk about all of the Jewish students who blocked entrances, spoke out against the genocide and want to see an end to Israel's murder.
Feels like she framed it as either you're Jewish or a protestor/dissident/bad person and that does not seem to be true even anecdotally.
If someone called me up and said they wanted to run a story about my fascinating brain in the new Yorker, I wouldn't hang up even when he started going "but doesn't it seem like you're kind of a moron?"
@silkscreenfiend.bsky.social everyone else in their lives affirms their intelligence, why should they be reluctant to have an interview with Chotiner from the New Yorker? It's not like they are stupid, like those other fools. No, they are smart and intellectual, don't you get it?
Not since the last time he did this to someone. I’m a nobody and if he called and asked to speak to me I’d smash my phone with a hammer and go into hiding.
I’m glad the Trump administration is taking anti-Semitism seriously by revoking visas of those who led protests against Israel committing genocide in Gaza… because UCLA students were blocking sidewalk access to students who didn’t say they were against Israel’s actions in Gaza.
This is a perfect example of how many of my fellow Tribe - intelligent ones - are gullible pawns for Trump. They are refusing to see this as the ruse that it is and won’t they be stunned to be in the cattle cars with along with me.
No Jewish students were murdered on any college campus. Their feelings were hurt because of graffiti, the same graffiti that was on our synagogue in Texas in 1976; Swatikas and mean words. No one got hurt. No one filed lawsuits.
There are lawsuits against both UCLA and against DePaul. Their feelings weren't just hurt. They were purposefully made to feel unsafe. Not for being supporters of Israel, but for being Jewish. It's okay to support Gaza and also be symphathetic to young Jews who feared for their safety. Holy shit.
You’re supposed to find the people who did it because there’s tons and tons of security cameras posted on every building everywhere in this world now. Then you prosecute them. You don’t file a lawsuit and act like a total “pussy” in your words.
Never seen you post about people in Palestine beinf slaughtered but here you are bending over backwards with the bothsidesism, easy unfollow. And the existence of lawsuits doesn't prove anything, there are lawsuits claiming that straight White people are being "discriminated against".
The lawsuits are about money. Period. I don’t like that the ACLU defended Nazis’ rights to say mean things, but that’s how free speech works. These punks in Texas spray painted “Die Jews!” on the walls of the synagogue. It sucks, but that’s just part of being Jewish.
She seems to feel that attacks on higher institutions and due process is deserved because the concerns of Jewish students weren't addressed with the immediate heavy hand she feels entitled to. Besides plenty of Jewish students being part of the protests, she's playing up a literal antisemitic trope.
My mom and son went to hear a holocaust survivor speak, and someone asked about Palestinian, and she was totally ok with what was happening. I don't understand it.
Honestly I think this is the key to the whole thing. She thinks her friends' diagnosis of Orange Man Bad is embarrassingly simplistic, so she finds reasons to praise Trump to prove that she is more astute.
I again wonder why normal people sit for these things. Like if you have a really good media trainer and you practice, maybe you come out ok. But the hubris. Also do publicists score Chotiner interviews bc they hate their clients and want to collect crisis management checks?
To my #Jewish friends - I don’t think we can say it enough… we don’t hate you… we’re just very unsatisfied with how #israel and #bibi have treated the 🍉 …and yes we know “they hit first” but have you seen #gaza vs #telaviv lately…hopefully a hatred for your biblical cousins doesn’t turn you #maga 🙏🏾
That's exactly where I could no longer take her seriously. The entire country of Germany agreed that it was a Nazi salute. People were just split on if that was a good thing or a bad thing.
Comments
"We’re a nation of laws. It wasn’t tolerance that allowed Jews to thrive here"
I think there are people who would be fine with a kangaroo court that gave a fig leaf of respectability to sending people to gulags.
https://open.substack.com/pub/danieldrezner/p/why-do-people-talk-to-isaac-chotiner?r=7u29&utm_medium=ios
Then they came for the Venezuelans and I said nothing because I only wanted to comment on antisemitism on the record.
Then everyone lived happily ever after, right?"
WTF
💀💀💀
It's all very troubling and should give pause to anyone.
Nonetheless.."
It’s either Chotiner or Xanax in 2025.
What I am learning now is that there is a not insignificant amount of people that think it means that never again will this happen to us.
It’s disgusting.
https://www.adl.org/night
She has burned her whole life’s work.
She has decided that Israel’s genocidal shenanigans are more worthy of protection.
So now all she has to do is bend everything toward that direction.
You can be antisemitic and be against Israels actions.
At. The. Same. Time.
Keep two thoughts in your head at the same time.
One is a religion, the other one is a state.
Now I’m just thinking if David Irving had jerked off Israel he’d still be a respected historian.
I’m basing this on how she won’t even say a bad thing about Elon Musk just because he went to Israel.
She is wholly incapable of facing the truth. She is lost in her own world of fighting antisemitism and avoids looking around at reality.
Then Israel murdered an American activist with a bulldozer in 2003.
SMDH.
I just don't get it, has she not read the fucking poem?
power…
Universities took antisemitism seriously this wouldn’t have happened” give me a break.
But the pulse-racing interviews are this kind. He just shows them a cliff, and they walk off it all by themselves.
And I’m
Someone who agrees there was hostile rhetoric among some
Columbia protesters tbf
And if they continue said behavior, expel them rather than deport them
https://www.propublica.org/article/biden-blinken-state-department-israel-gaza-human-rights-horrors
Like, as soon as she had such a bad start to the interview after he lobbed her such as softball, I wonder if his eyes lit up or if he actually just feels sympathy for their stupidity
Can she even hear herself?
I worked with @IChotiner one summer and he was an incredibly kind and generous colleague but if he called me for an interview I would sand off my fingerprints and flee to a country without an extradition treaty.
His appointment of Lipstadt as antisemitism envoy confirms Biden's crippling Zionism. Opposing genocide is how we protect our minorities.
They have the same enemies.
This temporizing on core principles is nauseating. Shame on you,
Deborah Lipstadt. You have become what you beheld.
Feels like she framed it as either you're Jewish or a protestor/dissident/bad person and that does not seem to be true even anecdotally.
"Hi, it's Isaac Chotiner..."
"Huh! Good luck with that!"
-click-
occurs is a total mystery. People really wanna touch that stove, I guess.
Totally the same.
Not sure why all journalists don’t rise to this standard.
1. Land war in Asia
2. Going against a Sicilian when death is on the line
3. Agreeing to an interview w/ Isaac Chotiner
Lipstadt can almost hear herself.
But not quite.