If abortion, marriage equality, trans rights, etc. are becoming red lines for liberals in a way they weren't 10 or 15 years ago that's going to strain liberal-evangelical relations in a way you can't really fix by like allowing a cake shop to turn away gay couples
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We call this freedom of association, and generally in my experience, growing up in a conservative Christian environment, they have a very hard time respecting it.
Are you kidding me? 1/
People need to freely live their lives and keep their noses out of other's business.
40,000 different Christian denominations bashed down to 1. No free thinking allowed.
They THINK it's what they want til they get it. Just like all those Nebraska farmers.
They're infants.
They need to stop whining.
I think it's around the age of 4 or 5 that children learn that their choices have consequences?
A lot of people really live and think like toddlers, and Trump is their toddler-king.
* His character arc includes a post-divorce dive into the manosphere, including name-checking Cernovich
* His ideas inspired a pastor to describe the US as "Trashworld, bugworld, globohomo, and this disgusting world of filth.”
The virulent strains of dominionism, misogyny, racism, and trans/homophobia on display here are abhorrent to them.
That ethics and morals are necessarily fluid and not objective is 🗑️.
An objective opinion of somebody's unethical and amoral belief system has veracity, and the burden of proof is on the claimant who appeals to magic to justify hate.
Oh, and even if you are a Christian they will kick you out their church and ostracize you too.
Also better literature. Discworld, for example, is a vastly more moral collection of books than the Bible. And with the added benefit that nobody even pretends it's not fictional.
Not getting invited to
thanksgiving ≠ literally unsafe and discriminated against
These things are not the same
There are no strong theological reasons for the political stance churches take, and people who buy into bigotry because their church preaches bigotry should maybe try not being bigoted, and try a new church.
Because it *sounds* like the problem isn't that some people are deeply hateful, but that other people don't like putting up with them, so the ideal result is for hateful people to be universally welcomed and never have to change
I tend to use "hateful" in place of "bigoted" but don't mean to include, like, justifiably hating someone for harming you or seeking to harm you
Because, like, if you don't, then every unkind read made of this bad thread is gonna look 100% correct
It's so hard for them to bare the reality of like... existing in a society where they can't deny civil rights and kill people that disagree with them.
All people deserve human rights.
There is no counterpoint.
Also, fuck off.
🖕🏻 them
These people aren't being snubbed for comforting lepers. They're beating up on people they don't like and waving the cross any time they catch a bit of push back
Those who assign opposite day status to Christ's criticism of the wealthy, the callous, and the performatively devout, are also entitled to their beliefs.
But those beliefs are a choice.
me: No!
Evangelicals: Why are you persecuting us??!!??
We cannot tolerate the intolerant - once we start tolerating their hate/hateful acts (& it is hate, we were taught 'it's of the devil') then we end up w/ gas chambers.
Live & let live, unless you are molesting children & work to eradicate minority groups.
#zerotolerance.
Yeah, no. "Why should I be persecuted for persecuting?" is some bullshit.
If we’re taking the words of the pastor seriously, it might not be that kind of response entirely. Here he wants to make a distinction between trans folk whose transness follows god’s plan and those who don’t and who, according to him, need to reconsider.
I’m wary this is just a way to still be transphobic but willing to be hopeful. Likely the amount of focus on detrans people from unreliable sources is getting in the way here.
https://www.columbiamissourian.com/opinion/local_columnists/guest-commentary-the-crossings-pastor-explains-his-sermon-on-gender/article_8ecf0d28-f1c6-11e9-8ca1-1faa52ee512c.html
Not deeply enough to actually do anything, but deeply saddened.
Yeah, that’s where I’m at with conservatives. Their value system is immoral and they’re anti-human experience. They have been since the start.
They deserve condemnation.
They’re scum.
Organized religion is the peel.
These aren't "cases". These are people: people that evangelicals want to oppress and humiliate out of society.
Why? Because fuck those guys.
The government can either enforce equal rights or it can side with those who are against them.
Like, I'm sorry, but you are a Jewish reporter with a declared focus in antisemitism.
Please, for yourself, learn what happened during the holocaust and why. And how. And how the lead up worked.
Like at all.
What some nutcase Christians do is a minor factor. Israel lets them bring their red heifers to Jerusalem, so you can't just blame Christians.
Am I understanding that correctly?
2. Real christians would be horrified by the genocide in Gaza. They wouldn't try to dismiss this crime against humanity as antisemitism.
Equal rights for all people period end of story
“Just because wider society isn’t embracing me or rejoicing over me doesn’t mean I get to lash out in response,” he said. “The culture may be opposed to you, but that doesn’t mean you’re not legally and politically secure.”
This isn't religious discrimination. It's rejection of extremist far-right politics
But it's not enough, because their *actual* grievance is not being the cultural and political center of the world.
Abusive relationship.
Their entire religion worships a god who persecuted quite literally to death. In their minds, the more they're persecuted themselves, the more like their god they are.
Take that component away, and... well, there's really nothing left BUT "love thy neighbor."
Fake Christians are being held to account for their ACTIONS. Wah wah fucking wah.
because of being lied to by their leaders and having a deeply toxic worldview that equates disobedience with oppression
That, and not pretending that me telling a white American Christian that I think he's an idiot and that his beliefs are abhorrent is "a kind of persecution".
How can you possibly have the temerity to say that Christians are persecuted in the USA?
I'm just pointing out the limitations of your observation.
Segregationists hold their views sincerely. Doesn’t mean they ought to be protected from justified censure. Many such examples
fix your heart
Let them compromise. Otherwise they can be ostracized and ridiculed for being the horrible people that they clearly choose to be.
You can't relate with that, only resist
I’d know, I was an extremely conservative Christian at the time.
Still a Christian, and your whole thread is absolute nonsense. Read about the moral majority project!
Why must secular people (who include many christians!) be the ones to turn the other cheek?
Pro-choice has been a red line for me since 1971--fuck the evangelicals. They believe in nothing except that Jews like me are going to fry if we do not kiss up to Jesus in the End Times.
A 50% reduction in the amount of lies you people tell could be a start. Also, stop raping the children.
The only thing that's different is we can howl at each other on social media now.
There is no level or duration of cultural dominance that makes the dominator not the aggressor.
The solution isn't to meet in the middle, it's for the guys dehumanizing strangers to stop.
If that wasn’t a value judgement, then you’re a very bad communicator.
Is everyone who is pro-choice, pro gay marriage, and pro trans right automatically an “elite”
(ignore which org has handpicked elite judges and cabinet chairs)
"At some point between 1968 and 2012, the Bible began to say something different. That’s interesting."
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/02/18/the-biblical-view-thats-younger-than-the-happy-meal/
And the same for trans men, except that was kind of a little sadder cuz they wouldn't have a penis, probably?
And this was, to repeat, a fairly homophobic society. We were discussing gays in the military and in the locker room, complete bigoted bullshit about them.
No one fucking cared about trans people.
Surely you would recognize how ridiculous it would be for someone in 1970 to say "but these are the same things I've thought about black people for decades!"
Why are you framing clinging to bigotry as a good thing, rather than evolving your thinking, and becoming more inclusive?
Lmao okay.
The mental gymnastics some folks will go through to remove agency from conservative Christians and their bigoted beliefs is amazing.
So what you’re saying is that liberals no longer followed the conservatives Christian’s red line in the sand, & they’re retaliating.
If two people are both holding a rope taut they are applying an equal amount of strain on it. The person refusing to move pulls just as hard as the person moving.
I will not break bread with people who see me and mine as lesser.
just sitting back or "going slow" is compounding the damage every damn day
"You gotta feel bad for those Evangelicals who want queer people to drop dead, those mean Elites forced gay marriage on society."
Abortion only became their pet hate after segregation was beaten.
Trans people only became the bogeyman when marriage equality won.
The "elite" are the ones dictating your hate.
Fucking asshole.
they Are Not Kind To Us!
they are polite at the barbecue and expect the same while spending the rest of their time swearing up and down that we prey on children!
why are people so fucking credulous but *only* for bigots?
I would not date anyone with those beliefs. I do not want to patronize their businesses or be a part of an organization that does, any more than I would a holocaust denier.
That's called freedom of association. It's not discrimination--it's anti-discrimination. Deal with it.
so it'd probably be the median viewpoint?
Perhaps you should fuck off.
The first amendment.
Get fucked evangelicals.
With this argument we will be back in the 1950s real quick.
So I don't give a shit about relations with evangelicals.
So if the evangelicals aren't worried about it, neither am I
This idea of abstracting them into red lines is a euphemism that betrays what they're really doing to everyone's and everyone's rights.
"Why can't you guys just be nice to us about how we're trying to kill you"✝️
reach out to black Baptists. reach out to Catholics. reach out to Presbyterians. reach out to Episcopalians.
The evangelicals want all of us dead.
And everyone wants to compromise for the evangelicals but not the reverse.
Asked liberation theologists? Inclusive churches? I doubt it.
You literally want to *genocide* hundreds of millions of people, but it's EVERYONE ELSE who's the problem.
STFU. We're sick of your sh*t.
If you want friends, you have to be a decent human.
SorryNotSorry.
The sooner they close doors forever the better.
And not, like, believing in the nicene creed or whatever?
Yeah fuck off they picked those fights, not us. Believe whatever you want, but if you try to force me the fights on dude.
Roe V. Wade was over 50 years ago. Stonewall was in 1969. Massachusetts legalized same sex marriage in 2004.
Read a book and then please climb down. We need the wood.
WTF?
Have you thought about that?
And lord knows there were the equivalent of concern trolls at those points saying we just need to understand the view points of Christians slave holders, or Christians against interracial marriage, or Christians against women voting because it would break up the family unit.
It really is tired
Basically every argument that you think causes strains for marriage equality and trans rights was previously made for something else that we now realize was bigoted as all hell.
1/x
Fuck that every day & twice on Sunday.
American evangelicals are out of step with much of the world, and the bits they are in step with tend to be run by, eg ISIS or the Saudis.
they should throw themselves up on the cross about it and leave the normal, healthy people alone
Do you think I'd feel welcome at their clubs? Are you going to write a thread about that?
Leftists have been pushing for these rights, and pushing against haters, for far longer that 15 years.
But thanks for telling us that you don’t understand liberal-leftist politics in the US, I guess.
They make their choice. Let them reap consequences. Enforce them socially.
Regardless, that relation should crumble along with every other christo-fascist asshole in that "religio " my rights to LIVE are not up for a debate
Civil liberties have always been red-lines -- esp women's access to abortion / reproductive healthcare.
Those civil rights are now ubiquitous in open societies. They're red lines if you're pro-democracy.
Liberals have never sought XRW Evangelical support.
They don't want us to exist.
The line is red because when it gets crossed trans people bleed.
Yeah, people are less tolerant of bigots. That’s a good thing.
They're self-persecuting & we pay the price.
There's nothing innately anti-gay, anti-trans, or anti-abortion about Christianity. These are choices.
Right wing Christians have always been on the horrific side of history