Interesting story that gets to the heart of why many Christians feel persecuted in the U.S.: The secular elite find many of their views abhorrent and uncouth
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/06/us/aaron-renn-christianity-conservative-negative-world.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/06/us/aaron-renn-christianity-conservative-negative-world.html
Comments
This is bad for social bonds and whatnot but you can't really police it!
That's worse.
I promise you this.
That would be a nice start, wouldn't it?
This includes political stances. Being a communist, supporting gay marriage, or being pro abortion are all things they would have ostracised you for in the past
Remember when tattoos made women socially repellant?
Both are sins (per the bible) but now socially acceptable.
Religious bigots root around their bibles looking for clues about who to hate, in order to make themselves feel superior.
Stop cowtowing to fascism.
and do you... not think that?
given how every time someone apparently misreads your point you say "that's not my point" and then do not, after that, say what *is* your point, you'd really clarify things by answering this
It could all be so simple, but they'd rather make it hard.
B) something being a "core belief" doesn't shield it from criticism
Antisemitism is a core belief of plenty of folks. It deserves opprobrium.
Something being a core belief doesn't insulate it from deserving opprobrium.
You hear people complaining about being ostracized for hold clearly oppressive, often overtly fascist beliefs, that they hide behind the nonsense of "tradition" and you blame polarization?
Genocidal freaks being treated fairly is not a problem here.
This whole piece is an exercise in fitting a fig leaf over a genocidal ideology.
Have they tried . . . Changing their beliefs?
3. The film festival leaving *is* the remedy, not the problem. The problem is the church's intolerance.
They’re not being disrespected: they’re trying to control others and being told “no” and then they cry persecution.
Like, there is a moral dimension to this, and the church is on the wrong side.
You don't get to pick and choose your Christianity just because you're personally uncomfortable. That preacher was saying more about his porn habits than he was about Jesus.
2. It’s irresponsible for whoever wrote that, to not included that there are Christian denominations that have transgender clergy and don’t follow rigid constructs of gender.
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there *male and female*, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Everyone in this country would be better off if we had more religious literacy. There’s lots of cultural prescriptions in the Bible for sure,
killing 48K Palestinians, leveling Gaza, cutting off aid & power...
- genocide
- transphobia
- forced birth
- homophobia
Makes one wonder what you would actually consider 'anti-social'??? 😕👀💀
Idk, bro mb don't commit genocide?
*to be super clear, I mean Zionist as people with a particular political ideology. It is NOT synonymous with Jewish people.
If there is a club ban on a PoV, don't try.
Oh oops, sorry, I guess I’m being mean to evangelicals again? The most important people in the history of the universe?
what your suggesting is that it should be illegal to not hang out with people who fucking hate you.
That's ideal, actually.
“No Zionists” is not the same as “no Jews”
It’s not a religious issue.
"How are we going to make progress with Jewish equity if we don't allow the nazis to join us?"
You can burn in hell, thank you
Having been an arts admin who has worked with churches, the notion that our orgs “bow to community outcry” is dumb nonsense, and you should feel bad for quoting it.
Arts orgs have values, and when venues don’t match our values, we leave. That shouldn’t be hard to understand.
There's no way to square this circle.
That's no tragedy. That's a XRW Church learning that it's PoV has been rejected. That's Life.
But no, if someone talks offensive shit about trans people, you don't care.
And we all notice.
They are assholes who want to get applauses for treating minorities like garbage. Screw them
"I think (insert other religion) should not be allowed to enter the country" actually does.
See the difference?
People offended by this state of affairs are not the problem.
Hope this helps.
That is a misrepresentation. What secularists notice is the frequency with which offensive political stances accompany and appear to be underpinned by certain 1/n
Reminder: Disagreement ≠ persecution.
Reminder: There is no polarization, hyper or otherwise. There is only #RWRadicalization.
Liberals are not "polarized."
1/
2/
God's favored? Don't know. Persecuted? NEVER.
3/
the bottom line is they don't know how to mind their damn business, they try to shove their beliefs onto others while refusing to respect differing beliefs, they support christian nationalism & white supremacy, and people are sick of their bullshit.
https://www.theframelab.org/yes-republicans-really-believe-in/
amazing
Or when Reagan's press secretary claimed a reporter was only asking questions about the WH response to the crisis because he had an "abiding interest" due to being "a fairy"?
Just *now*?
I can't tell if you're trying to get into the mindset of and/or satirize the people that think this way, or whether you actually think this yourself.
I hope not the latter.
And 2, when these beliefs are being forced down everyone else's throats in politics, I just have to say "horseshit".
The vast majority of electeds in this country are openly Christian. How the fuck can there be persecution?
These are just whining babies.
No one is telling Christians they can't be christian, we're just asking them not to be assholes.
Instead, they're picking and choosing verses that allow them to hate and control other people.
I pick this one for "core beliefs" and "police it"
'love others as thyself' is core across many faiths, most basically respect my humanity, can they live by it?
It's up to the identity to maintain authenticity, to vet incomers or accept bad faith.
obviously if you ask anyone here, we all agree with the anti-social label, but at the national level (or within specific
I don't much care what YOU believe, so long as you don't expect your beliefs to govern my actions.
It's not the beliefs themselves that drive the scorn.
of course, we could just say that a subset of beliefs are fine, but that probably isn't satisfying to the hard evangelical
I understand that their pain over exclusion or pushback is genuine. I’m fuzzy on why I should care. Caring hasn’t made them more eager assess their beliefs.
They are trying to assert their beliefs onto me and my rights, and I cannot accept that.
Believing in God is not the issue, control is.
The opprobrium isn’t because of their beliefs. It’s because they’re trying to make all of us follow their beliefs too.
And being treated in a way that hurts your feelings, esp. when you are being an antisocial prick, is NOT persecution.
so, yeah, you should not be welcome anywhere, IMO. Go found your own Christian country.
There is a reason you are avoiding saying what they ARE.
In fact, the more core to your identity these sort of beliefs are then the more I'm going to despise you.
Good.
That folks who hold them have long enjoyed respect and dignity doesn't itself warrant respect and dignity.
Trying to enshrine your religion into law *is* anti-social behavior.
Your anti-social behavior is the problem here.
Pharaoh said, "it is my sincerely-held belief that Jews are a lower class of humans and it genuinely hurts when you tell me that they are worthy of freedom."
Moses did not say "I am sorry for my oppobrium." He said "let my people go" again, but louder.
Why?
The real question is why do they want to be friends with us degenerates if they don’t approve of us? Imma guess it’s because it gives the veneer of acceptance without committing.
Specifics matter. What specific beliefs are you referring to here?
But yeah, the things they say would blister paint on the wall, but we're snowflakes if we object.
Sigh
If this is where their God has brought us, what use is he, Arno? Dignity. Snort
Just step away
The “rights for me but not for thee” vibe is just not doing it.
I know way more than enough about the bible to know that their "sincere" beliefs aren't based upon the spirit of the bible but a couple of taken out of context lines
They sincerely believe in bigotry, not the bible
Turning around and saying “don’t hate us for having political views that would make you a second class citizen” is just “rules for me and rules for thee”
Which law?
The three words in their Bible they've decided to hyper-focus on?
Or the legislation created by their bigotted political party?
Your "sincere beliefs" are trash and the we're not afraid to say it anymore.
They might baulk at what I think is fine to say about the actual elite however.
Because a billionaire isn't in my societal view.
Not to mention trying to make that opinion the law of the land.
Should we excuse them because their bigotry is sincere?
When a belief system promotes abuse of gays, women, non-beleivers, etc. THEY are the persecutors.
I guess self awareness is just in short supply on the right.
But here's what is really going on.
People who oppress others and don't mind their own business are reaming assholes and I cldn't give two shits if their feelings are hurt because they weren't allowed to hurt others.
Shame that republicans are the ones standing in the way in each instance.
enforcing one specific flavor of Xtian social doctrine ( eg abortion ) on non-church members by using state power punitively will make other Xians and non-Xtians push back hard!
That is, however, not persecution.
You keep using ‘opprobrium’ like it’s carved out of the dictionary for this specific grievance.
They are proselytizing for a religion whose core belief is that you were born damned and the only way you can save yourself from eternal torment in the fires of hell is to accept Jesus as your Saviour.
No thanks.
It matters not how sincerely a belief be held, if that belief is a harmful one.
you mean like being Christian Nationalists and White Supremacists and maintaining systems of abuse
But, of course, that would require self-awareness and committing the sin of empathy.
*goose* WHAT BELIEFS ARE THOSE
Creating byzantian unenforceable but draconian laws governing trans people using bathrooms just makes it clear that they expect Trans people to leave shared public experience so conservatives don’t have to think about them any more
https://youtu.be/YIw98lnIBHA
I was raised by evangelicals.
I'm in severe pain from their opprobrium.
When some try to impose their sincere religious beliefs on others, denying those others respect and dignity, they rightly face my opprobrium.
If you think you get to put me in prison unless *I* quit my job and burn my jeans, you’re going to face some opprobrium.
And despite what many of these people believe, the US is not and never has been a “Christian nation.”
Be precise.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah, they deserve "opprobrium" and more of it. Grow the hell up and be part of a society where people get to call you a weirdo for your "deeply held beliefs" and *gasp* can even make fun of you for them!
Their sincere beliefs are the anti-social behavior.
This is all horse shit.
It's the main theme of the history of Christianity.
People deserve opprobrium for the sincere belief that others do not deserve equal rights and equal protection under the law.
this is the thing here arno. you already understand why this is all bullshit
The Christians under Rome would've loved it if they were just seen as weirdos no one hung out with.
Persecution?!? You've gotta be kidding. Cut off the hyperbole, it'll help
Counterpoint: no it isn't.
This is "people I want to like me don't like me".
Arno, pull your head out of your ass.
And even if it were, read what Matthew 5:11-13 has to say about Christians should act when persecuted.
Sorry to hear glib, but like, words mean things?
LOL no it isn't.
The simple solution to the entire issue is for extremist Christians to wind their necks in. Stop trying to foist your hateful ideology on others and just like magic, all the “persecution” disappears.
snowflakes, the lot of them. can't take mild criticism of their "have you politely considered i want you dead" viewpoints. i weep, truly.
call me when they get denied housing, or a job, or have violence inflicted upon them, or have to deal with hostile law enforcement for their faith
My God! The persecution complex of Christian elites is off the charts. Get off the cross, other people might need the wood.
Or do you get mail on Christmas Day?
NO IT ISN’T
No, this isn't persecution at all. I believe this is covered by Karl Popper's Paradox of Tolerance. If we extend tolerance to groups that are intolerant we enable the dominance of that intolerance, putting society at risk.
The nation is basically christofascist and getting worse and you lot are persecuting tf out of everyone else tho.
I think what you’re really saying here is you don’t like gay people and you think disliking them is quite reasonable.
I'm thinking really hard here and I can't figure it out
if israel gets a new leader who is not as blood hungry as Andrew Jackson himself... then we won't have anything to protest will we?
being anti-war crime is good actually. relaxing.
Are you actually saying that there is some kind of problem to remedy here?
It says they are distancing from them because of beliefs *they hold* not *they are assumed* to hold.
If someone holds a belief that kicking dogs is OK it'd not persecution to exclude them.
Ppl have unpopular opinions all the time. Beliefs and opinions aren’t cost free. When you air them there may be consequences.
Persecuting would be treating u unfairly or cruelly.
Whereas dealing with natural repercussions of your beliefs is fair treatment & not cruel.
U can be a Christian & a decent person. It just seems 🇺🇸 ones aren’t..
A decent person doesn’t double down, instead they re-evaluate their ‘stated beliefs’ & discard those that aren’t true, mere tradition etc..
"You shouldn't be allowed to live your life as you choose, with the people you love, and I'm gonna make sure you don't get health insurance" - that's persecution.
"I don't want to hang out with you, get out of my property" - that's NOT persecution.
these "secular elites" deeply held beliefs are that bigotry is wrong, are you persecuting them with this thread?
"deeply held beliefs" purely invented for political gain are valid i guess?
China had the right idea wren they stripped all power from religion. Sick of ur excuses
Source: grew up in the heart of evangelicalism. Nobody was ever persecuted. Not once, not slightly.
Fuck you for carrying water for the dominionists.
They practice their versions of the RW evangelical Christian faith free from all interference (civil law, law enforcement harassment, or military) from ANY official gov't entity regardless of the party in power.
Yes that's because it's not persecution.
No. No it's not. Go back to school.
don't conflate this..
We don't even close for 4th of July.
But, sure, that's persecution.
Really hard to fight the type of persecution that *checks notes* privileges you, above all else.
Very dystopian. We’ve always been at war with Oceana. 🤦♀️
We’ve always been at war with Eastasia.
Also if a state uses a terror attack as justification for committing a genocide, people who aren’t evil are going to be against that state. It is quite simple
Christian “Traditionalists” REPEATEDLY convey that they wish to convert us or otherwise treat us like second class citizens.
This is a persecution complex of their own making.
Learn how to make a friend dude, Jesus Christ.
Completely bonkers.
It's like June 2024 all over again!
Oh wait...
Uncouth
Like “a dude can’t marry another dude and god forbid they adopt” is
*an uncouth belief*
Sorry guys you might need to change your religion if you want to get invited to parties
Gee willikers I wonder why they're considered unfit for society by many people.
Those we've lost (my brother) and those who live with the scars.
Maybe that's the problem?
i'm anti-theism but don't hold it against people who believe things i don't -we only believe what we trust from our various sources & dismiss what we don't. 👍❤️
https://sustainablesong.medium.com/how-religion-doomed-us-and-could-save-us-against-its-will-21ee115d62e5?sk=9d6bc2e8878d4a62911e85ccc016f97e
“Behind all this pain, death and destruction there is the stench of what Basil of Caesarea, one of the church’s first theologians, called ‘the dung of the devil.’ An unfettered pursuit of money rules. That is the dung of the devil.”
But also, American Catholics have weird evangelical crossover for sure. And I think evangelicals suffer for cutting the six books out that are much more explicit about “your wealth won’t protect you and you can’t exploit people.”
I think religion is like alcohol - it intensifies what people are like already.
It's tiresome not interesting.
Their scriptures tell them that being persecuted means their beliefs are true, so they WANT to feel like victims. It's twisted.
But they do vote and actively support people and causes that actively, loudly, and proudly hurt marginalized people while publicly being "nice".
Fuck off with that Bullshit.
Jesus never spoke about abortion, gay marriage, or trans people.
Treating others as lesser for things Jesus didn't mention is, indeed, abhorrent.
Anyone can believe whatever, and do whatever is legal (eg no pork etc). When [whomever] starts writing their [no pork] into law, yeah, I get agitated. Not a fan of the assumption about 'all of us' in the first para.
The level of entitlement by people who say "I'm persecuted because I'm an American Christian" is insane.
Christians literally forced their God onto money in the US.
Christians fucking suck.
And in the ‘70s, they picked abortion as a buffer issue. If all those baby-saving, pro-life politicians good Christians need to elect just happen to also support undoing every single gain the civil rights movement made, well, the Lord works in mysterious ways.
No group in the US has fewer grounds to feel persecuted than white, educated, (male) economically comfortable Protestants.
Start w Blacks, Jews, Muslims, women, ec-struggling, etc.
I was a pastor's kid. They were Baptist, then Evangelical.
I dropped their religion because of the way they talked about my gay and not-their-exact-version-of faith friends. There's so much dysfunction & abuse.
I've come to understand that there are wonderful practitioners of all religions who rarely get the spotlight because their faith is not performative.
I admire folks like JVP, Christian civil rights activists, & Sikhs who use their faith to protect others and better the world.
WHILE THEY'RE STILL MORE IN POWER THAN EVER BEFORE RIGHT NOW
Where is the tolerance?
Homophobia would be my guess
Signed,
A Christian
This is not persecution, and anyone framing it as such should eat a bowl of shit.
(Pete Stark came out in his 3rd term)
Christians own this country.
This whole “you must respect my belief” schtick fails to engage with the uncomfortable truth that some beliefs ARE abhorrent and uncouth. Sometimes Nazis really are Nazis.
When your belief is attacking the rights of others, when it's forcing others to bow to your belief, now I do give a shit. When you trample on the existence of others /1
...unless you're the TX GOP, in which you absolutely will go after helping the migrant.
https://www.ncregister.com/cna/catholic-annunciation-house-defends-against-alien-harboring-claim-at-texas-supreme-court
'Oh so you hate Christians?' no, I hate your repugnant social views
Tell me, how many atheist presidents have we had? How many state governors? What percentage of Congress identifies as Christian? How many famous atheist lawmakers have there been in America?
Which is why they're going after legal protection. If you have no right, there's no right to violate.
LGBTQ Community: "Well fuck you then."
Christians: "How could you be so cruel to us!?"
abuse of their children and neighbors, try to reintegrate Christ into their religion and worry less about the justified opinions of others about their abhorrent behavior 🤷♂️.
Their god is a tyranic mass murderer himself.
Mainly, though, there is not one group of people who represent “Christians” or speak for them. The church has schismed since… whatever you choose to be “year one.”
(And I promise you, those fuckers knew what persecution actually was…) 🤦
I genuinely want to know.
People trying to both sides awful shit: “why won’t you be kinder to people who hate the gays”
Easy blocks are the best blocks.
The view that women are inferior to men? Because that's a firmly-held belief which is being used today to justify misogyny and depriving women of bodily autonomy.
And no, these beliefs are *not* "a thing of the past", because as I pointed out, they are still being used to this day to justify the subjugation and othering of whole demographics of people whose only "crimes" are existing.
It is a religion of pure and unbridled hypocrisy led by glass cannons.
Their god is a tyranic mass murderer
-signed The secular non-elite
Because they're not.
Quick question - which views, exactly?
But if I'm honest, if your identity is wrapped around a death cult bent on violating people's human rights, I'm not siding with you because not doing that will hurt your feelings
It's not comfortable to do, but deconstructing that stuff is the way to better serve your fellow man, have better relations with your friends, family, and strangers.
But guess what? If you want to be respected, you kind of have to be respectable first.
—US Jesus-fetishists
WHAT ARE THE BELIEFS MOTHER FUCKER???
https://youtu.be/fUspLVStPbk?si=fB7EBjdf6HvlL7g9
We should really be nicer about that, so the fundamentalist Christians don't have to feel bad when they send us to the reeducation camps.
F all of that. My finite life is too short to hang out assuage the emotions of people who would rather I not exist.
And the people that do it are not ‚secular elites‘, they are just people with a conscience, who dislike the idea of dead children.
I appreciate everything you've written.
I cannot wait until these spurious shitheads go away.
Here is a cat wearing a napkin on his head. 🩵
Excellent inclusion of it here!
He wants to go back to the days when being a Christian was an advantage, just like MAGAs want to go back to the days when being white was an advantage. Equality is seen as oppressive to these people 🤬
Historically consistent st least: after all the puritans came to NA so they could oppress freely. Early history is like Taliban splinters fighting like rats in a sack. Yuck...
No one told them to get abortions. No one told them to have a same-sex marriage. Their inability to accept that someone, somewhere is doing things they abhor is not persecution.